The Role of Technology in Learning: A Conversation with Thomas Kiss

Conversations with a Learning Leader ft. Thomas Kiss

0:07
Hi there. Welcome to the e-learning Champion Pod. I'm Shalini, your host for today, and I have with us Thomas Kiss, who has graciously agreed to join us to share his insights in various L&D areas. So Thomas has been working for Syngenta Crop Protection in Basel, Switzerland since 2021. He has an MA from the University of Basel and his major was analytical linguistics.

0:35
That's really interesting, Thomas, and the minors were communication sciences and computer technology. Thomas has spent 20 years working in the medical devices industry before he joined Syngenta. And his focus of work is digital strategy, community platforms, knowledge management, expert systems and e-learning. Thomas has recently transitioned into a new role since October 2024 as a Data and Digital Systems Manager, where his focus has shifted a little away from digital education.

1:12
We really are excited to have him with us share his entire approach over the last 20 years. So Thomas, a very warm welcome to you once again. Thank you so much for joining us and a very warm welcome to all our listeners as well.

1:34
Thank you for having me in this session.

1:37
So, Thomas, I'm curious, you majored in analytical linguistics. That's an unusual area. So how did you get into that?

1:48
Well, I've always been very interested in language and communication. This is something that has been a focus of mine for a long time. I actually learned reading at a very young age, so language always played a very important role in my life. I was looking for something that bridges the gap between the humanities and science, and linguistics seemed to be an excellent way of having, on one hand, a formal framework of the analysis of what we do but still working with something that is ultimately very fuzzy and subjective and individual, which is language.

2:30
So how is meaning created? How our standards created? How is meaning conveyed was something that I was very keen on learning more about. And this is also what ultimately brought me into the learning space because what we do when we create learning content is we create structures of meaning. We try to identify concepts, and we try to get them across to our learners. On the one hand we have the instructor with a lot of knowledge and a complex repository of information and ideas. And on the other hand we have the learner basically on a journey trying to climb the mountain of knowledge. And to bring these two together, it is very important to see both perspectives and try to find that middle ground so that climb is ultimately successful. So this is what brought me basically in the field.

3:26
That's really interesting. And I think that also gives you a very structured kind of an approach towards L&D, a very analytical and structured approach. And then of course balancing it out with the creative aspect of it.

3:43
Absolutely. Absolutely.

3:45
But I still feel that knowledge transfer is predominantly a functional challenge which needs to be embedded in an experience.

3:56
We need to make the entire endeavour worthwhile, exciting, and explorative for the learner. But ultimately, if we lack proper design as the bedrock of the things we do, we will probably not get where we want to get to. So to apply a clear design thinking approach, I think is super important when we think about learning, putting the learner in the centre, and thinking about how can we connect the learner through a journey to the outcome that we want to achieve.

4:38
So would you say that L&D is both an art and a science, what we do?

4:44
Absolutely. It has a very, very strong social and emotional component. I think that has been also largely underestimated in the past few years, especially due to COVID, which imposed obvious restrictions on the way people can connect and interact with each other. But it also has led to an all over emphasis of technology. I think in many organizations, the quick solution was, just let's just put it all online. Let people interact with knowledge assets on their own, give them a little bit of structural and technology support to deal with the content. And the expectation was that this shift would actually work out and land well with the learning community.

5:29
But as Syngenta and probably also other organizations have learned, this didn't really work out because we were lacking the incentives. We were lacking the social component, the interaction, the experience part of it. So putting a lot of content on even sophisticated platforms doesn't really cut it ultimately.

So there is a shift back to this social dimension and also putting a much more practical spin to learning than before, just to incentivize the community to actually deal with what we offer to them.

6:06
That's a very interesting and valid point. I think post pandemic, everybody thought that, hey, it worked during the pandemic, there's no reason why it shouldn't work once again. But expectations changed as people went back to office. I think that's something that a lot of organizations have been grappling with. I'm sure by now we've arrived at a happy medium, a happy balance of the social component, as you've mentioned, the human aspect and the digital aspect.

6:40
So, Thomas, I'd like to dive into my first question for today. What challenges do you face in implementing L&D programs and how do you overcome them? Your biggest challenges?

The challenges we were facing and are facing, they're still somewhat the same. And it brings you back to something we touched upon a bit earlier. There's a tendency to quickly dive into content creation without putting enough emphasis and thought into how can we put the user experience in the centre? What's the value that we ultimately want to provide both to the business and the learner?

It in the end, it needs to work for both sides, but if there is no proper incentivization and if the learning journey is not as engaging as it should be, the learning process will not produce the outcomes that are intended. So to sit down and really think, OK, what is the value that we can provide to the learner? What is the incentive that we can provide? And how we orchestrate this journey in a way that it is exciting and meaningful is very, very important.

A part of that is also to try to find the right mix of modalities, not to overemphasize the individual interaction of the learner with content but try to also contextualize everything into a kind of a practical context and also a social context. So it is much more than just to produce content, which we very often see when we look at LMS systems. They basically burst with content, but they lack a lot of focus and concept. And this is also why in many cases the uptake does not meet the expectation. So you need to do much more than just think about producing more learning content. It's thinking about the journey that you want to take the user on. That's one thing.

8:59
And then once you have designed something, you need to see whether it actually works. So you need to constantly monitor not just the numeric uptake in terms of analytics in the system, but you also need to get user feedback, and you need to be willing to further adapt and optimize what you provide. That means you need to adopt a pretty strict and clear life cycle management strategy to the content.

So do not think once you've produced an item or a program and you put it there, it will stay valid throughout its entire existence. So things need to evolve as needs evolve and preferences evolve. So it's better to have less and take good care of it than just produce more and more and more and pile things on top of each other. Ultimately also losing the customer, the learner in this complex ecosystem of offers.

10:01
Yeah. I think that's really something that we need to pay more deliberate attention to, the shelf life of our content. And is it updated or is there a lot of dead content floating out there which really does more harm than good? And as you said, we need to integrate this as part of our work in establishing a thriving learning ecosystem.

10:27
So, thank you, Thomas, for those insights. Now, can you share something about what kind of strategies you employ to identify learning needs and to ensure that you're learning solutions are tailored to meeting the needs of a diverse set of learners?

10:48
This connects to what I said before. We need to inquire about how well the things we do land with our customer base, so to speak. So we will have the analytics of the system, but it's also a lot of conversational exploration in terms of finding out how the overall experience was. It's constant monitoring and inquiry on the one hand, and on the other hand, what is also useful and what was quite successful in our case is that we provided alternatives in terms of learning the same subject matter.

So for example, if we had a specific topic, a technical skill or expertise that we would like to impart, we set up the learning journey in two ways. It can happen individually to a large extent by the learner interacting with digital contents if that is their preference. Or as an alternative, we provided the same knowledge for a classroom setting delivery, either through a digital classroom that takes place in Zoom or Teams, or an actual onsite classroom setting. We also wanted to give our colleagues who act as trainers in the local organization the alternative to employ both modalities or mix them as they see fit. So they could go for an e-learning only approach if they want to scale. They could do a flipped classroom approach using some content for e-learning in terms of preparation, to set the baseline in terms of knowledge when people come together in the classroom or do everything in a classroom setting.

This flexibility is certainly something that has proven to be very useful because preferences may differ based on personal preferences, but also cultural differences, and also how you want to interact with your learner base. And talking about external learning, especially in some cases, scaling up is very important because the personal relationship to the customers is not so important and can also not be entertained, just basically due to resource reasons. So that's where you would adopt an e-learning approach predominantly.

13:18
But then for example, looking at the key account business where there's people that we want to build a strong personal relationship with, we would go for a more classroom-based approach and use different learning contents and modalities for that group. So to have this toolbox and flexibility is certainly something that is very useful. Also with regard to what I said before, further shaping and optimizing learning offers, if you have several options you can choose from, you're in a very good position to adapt to the needs that may arise.

13:51
Right. And that really touches upon a very important aspect of learner motivation. People don't feel compelled to take just one mode, so that automatically lowers some of the resistance or makes them more motivated when you give them options. So that's a wonderful way to go about it, even though I'm sure that there is additional cost involved when you repurpose the same content into multiple modalities. But I think the results are worth it. We've seen a lot of our customers going for this approach where, as you said, the flipped classroom and then leave the decision in the hands of the trainers and the learners. And that's when magic happens.

14:37
So yeah, thank you for sharing that. Now you mentioned a bit about stakeholder conversations and the initial groundwork before you can even go about thinking of modalities. So are there any best practices that you would like to share about, how do you manage these conversations with stakeholders? How do you get their buy in?

15:10
It's always the value approach. So on all sides, regarding all parties, you should try to find some kind of intrinsic leverage that there is an active interest in either contributing or participating in a learning and training activity. And this is probably also the hardest part, to make this fly, especially in a context where everybody is busy with day-to-day work and learning doesn't really seem to have enough space and also acknowledgement. So trying to encapsulate that value is certainly one of the key drivers.

And thinking about the different entities involved, especially about the subject matter experts, empowering them to really leverage what they bring to the table in terms of knowledge. For example, take away the weight of having to conceptually come up with concepts or approaches of how their knowledge is supposed to be delivered. Use them as partners providing the wealth of information that they have, but just to focus them on this instead of burdening them with creating slide decks, for example, as an input. Give them a framework, give them a structure in which they can play. You can also on your side in the implementation delivery phase, package things so they will ultimately work on the learner side. And most of all, give them the visibility.

I think that's probably one of the key things that was disincentivizing subject matter experts in the past years, especially thinking about digital learning activities, the subject matter experts tended to vanish behind the content they produced. So very often you would see, for example, e-learning modules, but the SME ultimately did not have a lot of visibility in the final product and consequently was also not really keen on taking active ownership, especially thinking about the further life cycle of the content. So provide the SME with a platform and guide them how they can best leverage their knowledge and then basically take care of that packaging process to create an outcome that is exciting and engaging for the learner.

Which brings us to another big challenge is that you have extrinsic factors and intrinsic factors to get to engage in learning. And I think many organizations have seen that the spontaneous uptake of learning content is not very high. The only programs that often work are those that are mandated, that need to be completed, and all the rest is basically left aside. And so the real challenge is how can we incentivize learners to explore the learning ecosystem and actively work on their own personal development?

18:43
And I think one of the key possibilities to make this happen or keys to make this happen is to make learning a part of their individual development plan, give them the freedom to choose in which areas they want to develop, and then acknowledge their accomplishments because that's where the circle ultimately closes.

Very often some learning objectives are defined for the next year, for example, but it's not really monitored what the actual outcome of those activities were. And I think as soon as you have this bedrock, this cycle of interest and acknowledgement, you will be able to foster some organic incentivization to further develop, which is not mainly driven by mandated programs and top-down requirements that materialize in certain programs and learning items that have to be completed.

19:49
Yeah. So you mentioned about giving the SMEs visibility. I was just wondering if you could elaborate a bit on that. How do you go about doing that? Because you get their inputs, you create the content. Is there some way we can acknowledge their contribution, give them the credit that is due even with e-learning programs for instance. Is there anything that you'd like to share?

20:16
Yeah, give them visibility in all potential instances where learners interact with the content. Provide information about them in the learning program presentation, provide some kind of means of communication. So they can actually act as tutors, so that they can connect with the learner base, they see what questions have been asked, they can assume this teacher role. For example, provide short bios, introductory videos where the SMEs can present themselves to the learning community. Just give the content a face. And I think that's very important. It brings us back to the social aspects of learning and how important those are. So content alone just doesn't cut it.

You need to have a relationship, and you will have that relationship not just with the content, but also the SMEs the contents come from. And I think this user and social focus has been underestimated, and we should build more on that going forward.

21:37
Absolutely. And I really like what you said, give the content a face, because it's all coming from the expertise of the people who are involved in giving you the inputs. And sometimes the digital solutions have a way of stripping out the personality behind it. So capture their anecdotes, their war stories, their real-life examples. And I really love that idea about having the SME shoot a video and share it with the learning community.

22:10
I was wondering, Thomas, since you mentioned the social aspect, do you have communities of practice within Syngenta for various functions as far as learning goes?

22:24
We do not have in our area. The learning community is more powered and driven by local needs regarding customer support. So we were also more outward facing in our training activities. Inward facing, we do not have yet a lot of interaction and communities that work with each other, build on each other, communicate. This is really just in the making. We have two or three years ago adopted an LXP to have a more user-centric approach on learning, but this still largely is rooted in a personal interaction of the user with the platform. Although we have the option to create communities, this is not yet fully materialized and it's certainly something to be to be explored further.

23:26
And as you mentioned, I'm sure every geography of the region, every location, they have their own little mini communities of practice where there's a lot of knowledge sharing and a lot of knowledge transfer and probably mentoring going on. So I was just recalling what you shared about working with SMEs. I think you touched upon another very critical point. It's very difficult to get an SME’s time and commitment because this is not their real job. Training is not their main job. And sometimes when we approach SMEs, our ask can sound very overwhelming because there are assumptions that we expect them to also create some of the content in a reasonably well packaged form. So I think what you shared about making it very clear, having role clarity and letting them know that they are the content, the knowledge experts. And we are the ones who will conceptualize it, design it, and present it in the best possible way so that the learner gets a great learner experience and not just some training that they have to check off. So I think that's another key thing. Yesterday I was listening to a talk on this very topic actually on role clarity and making sure that the SME is comfortable with what you're asking of them. Because if you don't clarify it and state it in black and white, then it seems to be a far bigger ask than what it actually is. So those kind of conversations right at the outset can go a long way in making sure that the rest of the process goes very smoothly.

25:16
Yes. And on top of that, you need to consider that in many cases, or in most cases, also at Syngenta, for example, the SMEs do not have a lot of didactic background. They're experts in terms of having a wealth of information and knowledge stored within them, experience, but they're not necessarily able to structure that information in a meaningful way.

25:45
So, I think this help is actually quite appreciated once the process is explained properly. At first, there's usually some resistance because they assume as they know how things work, they also know how to package that information. But the problem here is, in many cases, this is a lot of implicit knowledge that comes with it. So in making that knowledge explicit, processing this into a structured form that, to bring us back to the metaphor we used in the beginning, help the learner on their journey to climb the mountain, which is a very structured process of setting the right steps and one foot in front of the other. This is usually not something that is part of their expertise. And what we saw in many cases is that if you give the subject matter expert too much rein, you end up with unfocused information and a lot of it really difficult to access and process to the learner. As you will agree, it's better to have smaller bits and pieces, a more modular approach. But to break down this wealth of information and expertise that you have within the SME, you need to have some kind of mechanism. And usually the SME is not in a position to do that. That is one thing. And then there's also another thing that is very important. You need to have some kind of standardization and common baseline, for example, also in terms of terminology. It is very important if you want to impart knowledge to learners that you clarify concepts and concepts are very closely tied to terminology. So you need to be consistent here.

27:42
And very often subject matter experts are not consistent with each other. They may take slightly different angles of framing and phrasing certain things. And that is ultimately not helpful to the learners, especially if you have to make a distinction depending on the stage of maturity of learning. I mean, if someone is at the outset of learning something new, you need to create a solid foundation of the key concepts, and standardization and focus is much more important than when you advance into let's say more elaborate and complex areas of building on that basic knowledge. Then you can allow for certain variety and also try to look at things from different angles. But if you, at the outset, place the building blocks on which this knowledge house will then be erected, you need to be pretty clear in order to avoid any misunderstandings. Otherwise your learners, your customers will get lost in potentially contradictory or unclear definitions and framings of things and will just get annoyed and will also lose interest.

So it needs to be accessible, meaningful, and it needs to build. Each block needs to build on the next, especially at the beginning. And at some point some, some proficiency will be attained on the learner’s side, they will know how to contextualize and interpret information they're being subjected to. But this is at later stages of learning. And those later stages of learning will also most likely not rely on the more, let's say, traditional forms of learning like classrooms or e-learning assets.

This is more explorative, but that's of course when it becomes really interesting. But if you want to have a solid foundation, you need to have clarity. I think that's very important, focus and clarity. This is why you need to create a consensus or a standardized terminology and conceptual framing across different subject matter experts that may contribute to one thematic area. Let's say the level of governance that you need to apply is much higher in earlier learning development stages than later ones. It becomes more creative, more explorative, more interactive, and of course, also more fun.

30:05
Right, right. I'm trying to recall, I've done a very brief course in linguistics way back and a common lexicon, is that the right way to put it? They have the shared understanding of what you mean by something. Yeah, I think that's really important. And especially also when we as L&D professionals have conversations with SMEs, sometimes we use our own lexicon, our own way, our own semantics, which may not be obvious to the SME at all. So I think there is that bit too to consider where we have to speak, we have to have these conversations in a language that the SME understands and eventually the learner understands what they want to convey. So I think that's where we play a critical role in conveying the intended meaning and helping learners process information and build on it very systematically. As you said, lay a robust foundation and build on it brick by brick.

31:16
So yes, your concept is exactly right. So you have this lexicon that is built of lexemes, basically individual words or concepts or words representing those concepts. And around those concepts, you basically have a cloud of attributes that frame our understanding of of what that actually means when we use a certain word. But when you start thinking about words and try to define them, you very quickly will realize that it's sometimes extremely hard to create clear boundaries. So maybe just as an exercise for yourself, and we cannot go into that, but maybe also to our viewers, if you think about the word ‘game’, what is a game? Which kind of attributes would you cluster around the concept of game? You will start thinking about, okay, we have board games, we have sports like tennis, ping pong, whatever. But then you suddenly start to realize games can be much broader. We can play games in a social context without properly framing them as games. We can play with other people's emotions, feelings. And suddenly things start to become super fuzzy. And that kind of emphasizes that you need to start with a standard lexicon and understanding of semantic properties of something to frame those really clearly. And then you can go and discuss, OK, what are the dimensions can we explore? But we need to have this common starting ground. And this is the journey that we need to take the user on that we start with a pretty clear definition and then start building this contextual framework of understanding.

And I really like this metaphor of knowledge and understanding as a ball, as a sphere. So the inside of this sphere of this ball is what we know, and the outside of this is what we don't know, what we need to explore, what we need to learn. And obviously the bigger that ball gets, the bigger exponentially bigger its surface gets. So the more we know, the more questions we will have, assuming that the knowledge space cannot ultimately be exhausted, which we will need to find out, especially now in connection with the entire AI discussion.
Can AI solve everything? Can basically AI expand this ball indefinitely, so it will basically lose its surface? Yesterday I saw a YouTube video where they stipulated that, for example, AI can answer all the questions we have in physics for us in about 5 to 10 years. It can exhaust all the possibilities, potential questions, provide all the answers. It remains to be seen whether this is the case. But looking at how we have traditionally conquered the knowledge space, it is really expanding our knowledge and finding new frontiers for questions and explorations.

So this metaphor of the ball expanding and and gaining in surface area constantly, I think is a very nice way to look at it.

34:43
Yeah, it is indeed. I can just visualize it. And next time I approach some initiative, I think that's going to stay in the back of my mind. OK, this is just the inside of it. And this is an expanding ball. So there's more ground to cover as we progress and take the learner through their journey.

So, yeah, that's a very interesting metaphor, Thomas. I'd like to tie this to the next question, since you mentioned AI and how it's really pushing boundaries. We don't know is it in stretching into Infinity or where does it stop?

35:19
So how do you perceive the evolving landscape of learning and development in this context of advancing AI tools and technologies? What is the impact to our function?

35:37
I think we will become managers of knowledge tokens more so, and let's say the learning process in a more interactive way. The way I see it going is that learning will move away from asset-based interaction. I think what we see today in terms of modules and videos and defined more or less static bits and pieces of learning content, that will go away So basically this LLM philosophy of a tokenized knowledge framework that consists of smaller bits and pieces, I think that will have a profound impact on how learning will take place.

So it's basically a substitution of the mentor-learner or tutor-learner relationship where AI will step into that place. So things will very likely become much more personalized. And the big advantage here is that the LLMs will help us structure the content that we have.

I'm currently working on a project employing a generative AI approach which is called Retrieval Augmented generation, where basically on the one side you have a knowledge index based on current documents which is accessed based on a user query. The relevant content or knowledge items are extracted. This information is sent to an LLM which then builds an answer. This is basically a first iteration of an interactive tutor that can answer questions based on user queries. But this of course, is only the first step, because the key challenge in learning and building your knowledge is knowing to ask the right questions. And if you do not know which question to ask, then you will probably also not be able to identify the information that is relevant to you.

So this evolution needs to go much further so that the system basically knows whom it is talking to or interacting with and then guiding that entity or individual along the right path.

We're nowhere near that yet, but this is certainly where things are going. So basically a tokenization of the asset landscape. This token landscape will need to be managed actively. So this is how I see the role of all R&D or L&D evolving in the future. And then have a much more personalized way of interacting between people and knowledge users and knowledge. So go away from this package quite static standardized asset library into a knowledge space that adapts to the user’s need and guides them along a specified journey, either pre-specified for them or explorative-specified based on the interest of the individual.

39:09
Right, right. I mean it's really transformed our space like no other technology has. And since you mentioned Gen AI tools that you're using currently, so you're training them on your data sets so that they pull up the correct bits of information when users prompt them for them. So that's one aspect.

And the other is of course, probably training users on how to make the most of the prompts because everything depends on the input that you give it.

I heard something very interesting yesterday. I thought chat bots were a more recent phenomena. I was very totally astounded to know that the first chat bot was actually deployed in 1961. And apparently it was a chat bot called Eliza, which was trained to function as a psychotherapist. So that was also very fascinating. I need to begin some more to see what was the choice of this function. So anyway, that's just an aside.

So yeah, AI definitely is going to have a profound effect. And as you mentioned, learning is going to be more fluid. And that's a good thing really, because as you said, when you have assets which have rigid boundaries, it's difficult to move from one to the other in a very seamless way. And with the kind of personalization that AI is now enabling, it's going to adjust dynamically based on the learner’s past history, their past performance in a given area, and mapping it to the skills they need. So it's all really exciting.

41:07
And since the LXP also kind of uses AI as a base, I think learners do have a far better experience than through a traditional elements. So thank you so much, Thomas, for this very fascinating conversation.

And is there anything you'd like to leave, any parting thought you'd like to leave with our viewers today?

41:45
Well, I haven't thought of a closing statement. I think we live in very, very exciting times. I think the possibilities that we have in terms of technology and user interaction will have a profound impact on learning modalities, how we think about learning and what it also will potentially bring. And I think that's very important, is that we appreciate the social dimension of learning, and that learning is a community effort. And even if these systems will become more sophisticated as we move on, I think it's still about the social fabric and more than just knowledge transfer. There's a huge social and emotional component to it. And we should always keep this in focus. It's about people and how they interact with each other. Technology is very useful and will become even more so, but it needs to have its right place. And I still see technology in more of a supporting than in a leading function. I think we should lead the way. We should put the people, the human beings that we live and work with together in the centre and see where technology can fill in the gaps and support but not be basically setting the scene, setting the priorities and leading the way.

43:24
I think that's also a learning. Looking back on the technological evolution in the last 50 years of IT technology, at the beginning technology was king because technology basically set the boundaries of what was possible. At some point, as visual capabilities, memory and all these things became less of an issue, content moved into the centre and we have now in the last, let's say, 20 years, made another transition, putting the user or the human being in the centre. Also, with the advent of solutions like learning experience systems that you just mentioned. I think we should further build on this idea of putting the learner, the user, the human in the centre and leveraging technology as a catalyst, as support mechanism, as something that liberates us to do more and be more successful with the time that we use but still see it as a clearly supporting solution.

44:33
Right, right. Thanks, Thomas. Actually it helps to remember that and do not lose sight of that fact because really there's just no substitute for the human aspect that we bring to our job. And in fact, this also addresses many fears and concerns that many professionals have about technology replacing them entirely, AI replacing them entirely. I read a very interesting quote which said don't outsource your thinking to AI, let it do everything else. But like you said, don't let it take the lead, don't let it call the shots, don't let it set the parameters. Those are decisions that rest with us. So I think together we can really, by partnering with AI, using it as an enabler, a support technology, we can really achieve great things.

45:25
Yes. Have a constructive dialogue with technology. It's exciting that this is basically now possible. So a new entity has entered the space, so to speak, and we can go on that journey together.

45:40
Thank you so much, Thomas, and thank you listeners. I hope you found the insights that Thomas shared truly as enjoyable and useful as I did. And thank you once again, Thomas, for accepting our invite so graciously. And thank you listeners, to stay tuned for our next podcast.

46:00
My pleasure.