Strategic Skills Training in the Automotive Industry: A Conversation with Patrick Benammar

L&D Meeting the Need for Emerging Skillsets

5:14
Hi there. Welcome to the e-learning Champion pod. I'm Shalini, your host for today, and I'm thrilled to have with us Patrick Benammar, the Learning and Development Vice President for Renault Group since 2018. He animates the learning and skills development dynamics at the group level and collaborates with all the L&D teams in functional academies and in all countries where Renault Group operates. Patrick is the leader of Renault University since its creation in 2021. He has been engaged in learning and development experiences covering different cultures to support effective cooperation between teams. And previously, he was Compensation, Benefits and Learning Director for a global automotive supplier for 13 years. He has also held different HR positions in Siemens, France, among others. Patrick has a strong capacity to lead international projects and to develop high performing teams.

6:40
To begin with, Patrick, I would love to hear your insights about what's happening in the automotive industry.

6:56
I think the automotive industry is having a huge transformation, probably the most important transformation in that sector over the last century. And this is a technical revolution, notably through the introduction of the electrification of the mobility which is completely changing the structure of the car itself. Because the car is software-based and involved in a system of connections, this is generating a lot of questions around the capacity to connect the car with different functionalities. It is also opening opportunities in terms of the evolution of the car. Like your mobile phone, you can add apps or change functionalities across the course of the usage of the car.

The second challenge is linked to the development of this new industry, because to build this type of car, the industry is changing a lot. Manufacturing activities are evolving with a lot of digitalization, generating a lot of questions around how we can make our industrial plants more effective and more productive.

There is also the question about the repair, recycling, and remanufacturing of the parts associated with the electric car, notably the batteries, which could be repaired and used for a second or third life. This also means a new ecosystem and a new business model that is creating value not only for building cars, but also for recycling, repairing, remanufacturing the parts and reselling them to an ecosystem.

8:51
So a lot has been happening, and amidst all this, there are new challenges that L&D has to tackle head on. So, how big a challenge is it to align learning and development initiatives with organizational goals and priorities, considering that everything is evolving so fast?

9:23
It's a good question. The difficulty is you must move forward without knowing exactly where you’re going to end. If I take the example of a circular economy or industry, when Renault initiated this activity in 2020, there was no real market for recycling or repairing parts. There was no real market for repairing batteries and giving them a second or third life. But we had to create these positions in our organization to prepare for the future, and start upskilling, and in many cases, reskilling people, to go in this direction and take on new jobs.

What is interesting is the fact that we have a constant need to adapt the curriculum, the portfolio of training we are providing. We also have to be very creative to deal with technologies that, to a large extent, are not really known or mastered. Which means a lot of work with the experts to define the skills which are required. A lot of work also with the teams to find the right way to train our people and those around the group. And looking for continuous improvement of the programs to adapt them to the training needs.

As the needs are changing, almost daily, we need to be able to quickly adapt and adjust the programs, which for us is creating a virtual circle of understanding the needs, testing, piloting activities, upgrading them, getting feedback from operations, and adjusting the programs in a very efficient and agile way.

11:45
So, Patrick, you mentioned this constant need to improve existing programs, identify new skill sets that are required for a role that may not even exist at that moment. But given where the company is headed, is there a framework you have for these skill assessments? How frequently is it done? And how do you identify learning needs given that some roles are not even created as of now, but you still need to future-proof your workforce in some aspect and to some degree? Can you share with us your framework for identifying learning needs and tailoring solutions that are aligned with them?

12:34
We have an approach which is based on the definition of strategic skills, and the skills we need to develop to address these technology challenges. There is a formal road map for the development of these technologies. Generally, when you introduce new technologies, you have a limited set of people working on them. Once they are approved and validated by the market and the business, they expand. See the example of cybersecurity. Ten years ago, it was only work for a bunch of experts. Now it is included throughout the development of the car in all aspects, fundamental aspects that every project manager needs to take into consideration, the cybersecurity elements associated with the technical solutions. So technology has been moving from a limited approach dedicated to experts, to a wider spectrum of competencies that have to be addressed to a larger number of functions.

13:45
And we have in our internal approach, the critical skills which are absolutely fundamental to deliver our daily operations. When you are in a plant, if you don't have the required maintenance skills, if the machine stops, you're blocked. That’s why maintenance skills are critical. So you need to associate the volume of your critical skills to the size of your activity. If you are very much dependent on some critical skills for your daily operations, then you need to upskill your teams on a regular basis to ensure that whatever happens around you, you are ready with the right level of skills to sustain your activity and business.

So these are the two main differences that we are doing. Strategic skills which are helping us define the road map of skills that we need to develop across the organization in the next two to three years, and the quicker critical skills on which we need to have a constant check. Do we have the right level of skills in the operations?

Do we have the right level of skills in the projects?

And try to find agile solutions for these needs by training people, being more flexible in the second case than in the first one, which is more prospective.

15:11
That's interesting, Patrick, the strategic skills aspect because we've been hearing a lot about how the role of L&D has evolved from being a mere order taker to being a very strategic partner with the business. And I think this focus on strategic skills as well, which makes your organization future proof, gives it that ‘say’ at the decision-making table. How did the shift come about? Was it really a huge challenge?

15:47
I think it was really a big change for us. After the COVID period in 2020, the automotive industry was in big trouble. We had need to change our ways of working and our organization dramatically. So we decided to move from an organization that was driven by technology to a real tech company which integrates this skills-based organization in our daily operations. A technology company is driven by technologies, which means you decide on the technologies you are going to deliver, adjust your portfolio of activities, and organize them around the technology. This was a big shift for us because in the past, we were very much focused on the volume, on the product itself, while the switch to technology is opening a bigger range of activities that you need to cover.

So you're not focused on the car, you are focused on all the technology elements which are needed to deliver a mobility solution to your customer, including having enough sales approach to be integrated, and the fact that you need to recycle and repair your products, and maybe give them a second or third life.

And this is generating business opportunities and new value chains that have to be created. This is the orientation given through our transformation plan initiated by our top management. It has helped us reengineer the way we were working around skills training and people development to a large extent.

17:59
I think it's amazing how we very quickly pivoted to whatever was now needed. I think all of us across the globe can give ourselves a pat on the back for this successful pivot and especially more so when it comes to something like the automotive sector. Coming to my next question, given that the scope of training has really expanded beyond merely focusing on the product, but covering all other kinds of features, sustainability, reuse, and recycling, along with other related aspects like selling skills, what has resulted in this shift? Has it redefined the role of L&D? And how have you met this challenge? What made it easy or difficult during this transition?

19:19
I think the solution was brought about by the creation of a new corporate university. Renault University was created to make the change more visible. Because you have to create a shaking effect to move from the ancient world of learning to a new world of skills-development. And the new role of learning officers, which has to be really close to the business and a little away from the past where we were executing a lot of things that were coming from the business. The switch between being good in execution to giving orientation and structure to the projects at the early stage and helping find solutions rather than deploying solutions has been really something fundamental. Because by switching to a role which is more strategic, you get engaged right where you need to take decisions. So that means you take decisions together with the business, sitting together. It's not the L&D operations on one hand, and the business on the other. It's a joint project trying to address a business objective together as a team.

This is the big change because we have been really associated with the business results and our contribution was much more material. We need to help people switch from this role to these new roles in the next two years. So we will have 1000 people moving from existing roles to new roles that are not still completely defined. If you do it, you have the results. And if you are not able to do it, everybody will see it. Which means a lot more exposure, which is sometimes challenging and difficult, but at the same time, a much more exciting challenge. Because at the end of the day, it creates 3 fantastic opportunities. The first one is to be more visible.

The second is being more involved and closer to operations and being contributive to the results.

And third, if it's successful, you can say that you have been part of the success.

22:11
And I think the results that Renault as a group has achieved in the last three years are really exceptional. We have never been so profitable and so successful in terms of sales. This is due to these dynamics that have been created, not isolating learning, upskilling, and reskilling from the centre of the operation. It's a business decision to upskill and reskill people. And we should have the same quality and execution that we have in our daily operations. It's at the same level of importance.

22:51
Thank you, Patrick, I think you put it very beautifully. L&D is not a separate entity only rolling out training, it's partnering with operations, truly identifying the actual pain points and together you're co-owning the solution. And that is a very big shift in mindset too, because typically we are seen as the support staff who come and roll out some programs. And of course, now that perception has changed. With this level of involvement and working alongside the business, the results are also pretty evident. So Patrick, on a tangential note, how were you measuring the results because you said they were very visible? Of course, people being able to do their new jobs when they were transitioned to their new roles, that was probably the biggest indicator of success. But can you share a few thoughts on how this was being measured?

23:57
The first important element of measurement was our capacity to engage a vast number of people in these initiatives because we had a very ambitious objective. We were committed to help upskill and reskill our people at the level of 30,000 when we launched the university, creating from nothing. So we said, in the three years to come between 21 and 25, we should be able to help more than 30,000 people to transition to new roles or new skills.

At the time it was a little scary, but finally the organization was split between the different projects. For example, when we had to support the evolution to electric motor activities, we decided we're going to have around 500 people who have to switch from traditional engines to new electric motor activities within two years.

Can we really help these people to transition to this role? And what is their level of performance? Are they good employees at the right level in terms of skills, experience, and performance? Is it bringing results to the business, in terms of expected quality and productivity?

Because in this case, we work on the improvement on the quality of results. We work on the quality of people who are staffed on the new projects. Are they at the right level? Are they able also to integrate the newcomers and give them the right support?

Of course, there's a lot of help for people transitioning to new jobs. There is also the size effect, how many people have changed from one role to the other?

For example, in one case, we had to take more than 1300 people from old roles to new roles, with the stop of the activity and the birth of a new activity around recycling and remanufacturing. We also had a big question around our capacity to support new technology drivers like artificial intelligence or data knowledge. So we had big projects around that with the implementation of new technical solutions.

26:37
For these solutions to be efficient, we needed to train a big number of people for every role in the organization, for people to be able to use AI and data in their daily operations. For example, for supply chain roles where many decisions are taken today using data sets and AI to predict what could happen and then avoid problems of delivery that are impacting the performance of our global supply chain at the end. The performance is not only economical, it's also environmental because we’re also reducing the number of trucks on the road, and the number of transports done every day.

27:27
That's really very interesting, Patrick, because it's challenging enough to train people for roles with very specific skill sets which have been there for a long time. But emerging skill sets, that's a different ball game altogether. So what was your approach for designing and implementing L&D initiatives, for all these programs? What kind of modalities were effective, and what was the mix?

28:05
We have a motto which is the ‘learning back practice’, a pedagogical focus, where we try to elaborate with our experts, with people in operations, and with learners and trainers, and training activities focused on the capacity to transfer knowledge to operations. Which means we are trying to balance practice with theoretical learning, 60 to 70% dedicated to practice and 30 to 40% to theoretical learning which is required.

Which means at the end of the day, the programs we are delivering should be applicable for the people living at the campus, or after leaving the classroom. This is the motto of Renault University. This is the way we design the programs.

29:18
The second point is the capacity to work in projects. Because any new curriculum which is created is a project where you need to mobilize resources and ensure you have proper engagement from all stakeholders who are key to make your program a success. And notably, we have to rely a lot on our technical experts and internal trainers because they are in a position to see what's working in operations, and to analyse the quality of the problems in operations. Analyzing the problems and learning to detect these problems is the way to help people learn what they should do. For example, we have a lot of training programs which are designed on the capacity to learn from problems, identify solutions, and understand what has to be done properly when you are in a proper and correct process.

It's really an approach which is not really the European way or the French way of teaching, because we are much more in the reverse approach of learning. It's also the contribution from the learners who are discovering problems during their activities that could help them understand what is the solution they should learn and anchor in their brain. Because they have been working on identifying the problems to solve the problems. So it's really derived from the way we work in operations. The automotive industry is very well known for its quality systems which are really powerful. And based on the contribution from any employee on the quality solving issues and, on the capacity, to identify problems and avoid transmitting them to the final customer. At the end of the day, learning could be a problem in operations. So how could we avoid problems to make people more aware of the problems and help them propose solutions to solve the problems?

31:44
If we start from that to build the curriculum, it would be more natural for people to go through the learning and be able to apply the learning in operations. So a big shift in the capacity to describe the situations and put the people in the context. For example, we have industrial equipment dedicated to learning, where people learn what they will have to do on the lines. But they're not on the lines, they are on the same equipment and the same machines. So exposure in getting experience by doing things with your hands, with your brains, is also helping transform the organization.

32:36
Wow, thank you. What you said was really interesting because you mentioned that the moment training is over, they are being utilized in a project which really needs and demands those new skills. And that gives you a very clear indicator of the success of the training that they have been through and this mindset where you constantly problem solve. It's very interesting that you said that L&D takes the same approach as operations does because I think that's where it becomes very seamless.

33:15
We are no longer just another function out there trying to help somebody from the outside, but to inculcate that mindset of problem solving, which is already in your company's culture, to leverage that even for L&D, that's a very valuable insight. At the end of the day, if we look at all our training programs as something that we equip our workforce with to problem-solve and apply and come up with solutions, that's a great measure of success. You’ve given me a lot of food for thought by sharing all these insights.

33:58
What is also important is we have a lot of internal trainers who are spreading the knowledge inside the company. To give you an example, we have over 1 million training hours per year delivered by our internal trainers. This is also the link between what we see in operations that could help others do their job well. And to do that, we need our internal trainers to make this transition. This would not be possible without the fantastic support from my internal trainers, without their engagement, because they make the connection between what they see in operations and what has to be taught to others, and they know the possible consequences for the company. So, they help make this transfer of knowledge a real differentiating factor for us.

34:55
So you must be having a very robust ‘Train the Trainer’ kind of programs all the while, right?

35:07
It's important for two reasons, because becoming a trainer is not something natural. You need to acquire some competencies which are linked to the training delivery, the way you deliver the training, the attitude, what we expect from people. We also have the question about learning, about pedagogy, which is also important. This is part of the curriculum, and you need to have the right level of understanding of the problems which are associated with the subject you are covering. Which is also bringing a lot of value-add for participants, because you always have formal training, which is around the course itself, and the business case, the situations you are exploring. But you also have side discussions with the participants about the experience, the cases they have been confronted with. Which makes the training much more engaging because you can sometimes come with a problem, discuss with your trainer, and at the end of the day, it connects you to a solution which is not in the course, but just on the side of the course. Which also gives the value of connecting people to the training, which is one of the key benefits of trainees connecting to people who probably would not have been in contact if they have not been in the training process. So it's a big benefit for the company. And we have a lot of that with the transformation we had. Training was a way to bring people together from different horizons, different countries, different functions, different levels of seniority, different profiles.

It was also a way to have this community effect, which is important. Because when you are confronted with a big set of difficulties, bringing people together brings more solidarity, more capacity to support each other, to be more resilient at the end. That's another key thing because learning is a continual process that doesn't end with a one-off event.

37:22
Learning is just the starting point for a lot of other deeper conversations, sharing of best practices and, solving real problems which you may not encounter, but which perhaps your colleague has encountered in another part of the world. All that enriches the community of practice. So Patrick, I'm curious because all of this is your face-to-face live classroom sessions and virtual sessions. What about the theoretical concepts and frameworks? Do you use a lot of digital learning for that? How would you say digital learning is utilized in Renault University?

38:01
We have an important centre of digital learning content, but the idea is to have the learning structured in the progressive approach, exactly what you said about continuous learning. For example, for an awareness program for a large number of people, it's really interesting to use digital learning. This is what we've done on AI or data. We had big programs, ‘AI for all’, ‘Data for all’, where we wanted to embark a vast number of employees around these subjects to make them understand what is the strategy of the company, or the willingness for the company to invest in these technologies, and what would potentially be the things they have to know, globally speaking. Then we also used a lot of digital learning to support some activities which are in the upskilling processes at a certain level. Notably, in the example of cybersecurity, or things which are related to the connected car, you need to test things, and you can test them on site, but you need also to test them virtually. Because if you want to test the cybersecurity of the car or its connection, you have to test the virtual parts.

So when you design the program, you need to integrate both, the physical part, the in-class station where you need to experience, and the simulation, which is distant by nature. So, it's interesting because the evolution of technologies is facilitating this type of approach. And last but not least, when you try to build a community of learning, you can have people from different nationalities, origins, time zones and digital learning. Some elements of training about leadership development or cultural development would be done at distance, a small course. A lot of attention to the participants, but it's very powerful because you can connect on the longer program people from different nationalities on a very regular standpoint in a very fluid way to create the sense of belonging.

So we are using a lot the digital learning and frankly speaking, it has been very much accelerated after the COVID crisis because we were in the phase of ramp up of activities, and then the booster was given, and we have stayed at a very high level. We do around 500-1,000 hours of digital learning per year.

40:59
But I believe that we as a company need to have a good balance between online training, distance training, blended learning, and pure autonomous learning. We already work on the split of different activities. Also about accessibility, because not all our people are in the same country, they don't have the same access to training. You have some people on the industrial side, some in engineering centres, some in operations, some are mobile moving to customers every day. Some are more stable in offices, some are working partly from home with hybrid work. So, we have also to adapt to different profiles of learners.

This is why we need to keep a big diversity in the offer in order also to give this level of accessibility, which is required because we train our access, our training access rate is over 85%, which means around 85,000 employees per year to be trained.

42:15
And Patrick, since you mentioned digital learning and the technology platforms and simulations and all of that, which you've been using among other formats. What role do you believe technology should play in modern L&D initiatives and how do you leverage it effectively? This could also include AI in L&D.

42:42
Yes, AI will play a big role, and we start to see the benefits from AI today, in the design of the content, the capacity to create, for example, quiz, to create scenarios and to make stakeholders react more quickly. We have also the capacity to translate and adjust the content to different languages, which is important in an international group. We are talking about simulation. We have a lot of experience in virtual reality activities. The key drivers, for example, are experiencing virtual reality learning paths digitally, which are helping them become more at ease with the technology before going in real operations. I'm strong believer in the capacity of virtual reality to provide situations adapted to operations that you can tailor to your company’s needs. I'm also convinced that all the testing platforms where you put people in cases which are really close to operations. We are talking about cyber for example, simulating crises in order to help people have the capacity to understand how they would need to react in a real situation.

44:15
The business case approach, which is putting people in real conditions, having equipment similar to the one you have in the line to practice. And this capacity to bring people in situations close to reality which has generated a lot of questions around the technology you need to use, because then it becomes wider. I'm a strong believer in the integration of technology in learning.

44:41
And I think the second point, is the capacity to adapt the training modules to the participants. The individualization of curriculum, even the individualization of the modules inside the curriculum, could help reduce the time to deliver the training activities and also probably the time to upskill and reskill people.

That is a big challenge for us, to have less effort, more focused on the need and more reactive. What I'm really looking for is the capacity to be knowledgeable about what people are really doing in their operations and suggesting them training that could be helpful for them if they face difficulties or if they are at the productive level which is not expected.

45:45
So we see that on the lines for example. If you have difficulty to do something automatically, your digital companion is going to ask if you need help or video support to help you see the sequence and what you need to do. I would call it ‘the co-piloting’. And co-piloting in terms of learning will be probably very, very interesting in the future. It would be a mix of analyzing the operations you are doing, analyzing your agenda, analyzing the needs you want to develop in your role, based on the skills referential, or the needs you want to develop for a new role.

That would be part of the revolution of learning in the coming years with one challenge, which is keeping the capacity to be really close to the flow of work.

46:40
Thank you, Patrick. You've painted a very comprehensive picture of what we can do by leveraging technology and staying as close to the business as possible. So, Patrick, with so much going on in the industry, how do you stay abreast of industry trends and best practices in L&D? You have mentioned AR and virtual reality. How do you stay abreast of what's happening? There's something new happening all the time in the world of L&D.

47:15
It's really important to be connected to peers. Peer-to-peer learning is really essential. I'm very much involved in peer learning and looking at what's done in terms of technology. Participating in forums, in the events which are organized around the evolution of technology, is really essential to get an understanding of what's happening around us. It's really interesting not to have only ‘my eyes’. It's to spread the eyes between the team and have regular exchanges with all the teams, including the people who are contributing, our internal trainers, our experts about what's happening in the learning world, which is really important because the question of curiosity and continuous learning that we are pushing in our organization, we need also to adapt this type of approach to ourselves. We should be role models. So, we need to be constantly looking at new solutions, investigating, testing new solutions. We are doing the ‘test and learn’ approach for ourselves, which is a safe way to be aware of what's going to happen, but also in line with what is or could be needed by our organization.

48:53
I think you've touched on a very key point, Patrick. We work so hard to inculcate a learning mindset, learning agility, curiosity, and all of these skills among our colleagues, our workforce. But it begins with us. And what you pointed out was very, very true, that if we don't demonstrate it ourselves and if we are not modeling it for others, then there's likely to be very little engagement when the time comes for us to roll out some initiative. Patrick, one final question. What advice can you share with L&D professionals who want to grow their career?

49:43
I would give advice which is around what I've said just before. I think it's important to be curious. It's important to be open to new technologies, new ideas, new suggestions, and to be flexible enough to adapt to those changes to gain the capacity to be a change maker. Always try to learn from the business. This is something which takes time and effort but is a valuable investment. So same thing in the peer-to-peer learning, taking time with your peers to exchange gives you fresh ideas and helps you stay at the right level in terms of thought and connection to initiatives you could have in your organization. I would say we should be always thinking of ourselves, the learning community, as being a kind of role model for others, but not a role model in the sense of giving lessons to others but illustrating what it means and the benefit we can get from it ourselves that at the end becomes a benefit from the company.

51:10
Patrick, thank you for giving us useful insights and the behind-the-scenes look at what’s happening in the automotive industry especially post COVID, and the transformation and the corresponding transformation in L&D to be able to meet that challenge head on. We really appreciate your time and I'm sure you very much found this very valuable, thank you, dear listeners.