Applications of Psychology in Learning: A Conversation with Catherine Grus

Podcast with Catherine

0:00
Hey there, welcome to our e-learning Champion pod. I'm Shalini, your moderator for today's session and I'm very excited to have with us a very distinguished person, Catherine Grus, who is the Chief Education Officer at the American Psychological Association.

0:19
Catherine leads APS efforts to promote psychology in education and education in psychology. And she plays a leading role in advancing inter-professional education for students, primary care psychology service, and the development of models and tools for competency assessment and supervision.

0:38
Catherine is the recipient of many awards, including the Paul Nelson Award and the Nova University Distinguished Alumni Achievement Award. Catherine was inducted into the National Academics of Practice as a Distinguished Scholar and Fellow in 2016.

0:56
So we are really excited to have you here with us, Catherine, and can't wait to get started. A very warm welcome to you and to all our listeners.

1:04
Thank you. I'm so excited to be part of this podcast today and to talk about one of my favorite topics, which is applications of psychology to education.

1:16
And that is a field that is evergreen. So, you know, with technology changing the learning landscape, one tends to imagine that a lot has changed when it comes to the psychology of learning.

1:30
So my first question is along those lines, really. Has the way learning happens stayed fundamentally the same after the advent of technology and how after it changed the game? Are there new ways in which adults learn? So could you shed some light on this?

1:48
So while the science of learning is continuing to evolve, I really think about technologies providing us tools to augment what we know about how people best learn, to help them engage more with material, and to ultimately achieve the goal of learning more.

2:07
I'm going to give you a few examples of ways that I think that technology is building upon what we already know about how adult learners access and engage with information. So while it is still the case that there are some individuals that don't have access to cell phones or Internet capabilities, a majority of adults do across the world.

2:32
Digital tools really are opening up access to broader communities of individuals than ever before because they're not restricted by having to be in a particular location to take a particular course. It offers for adults the flexibility and the convenience that busy adults need. These are often people that have careers, they have family responsibilities. They need to be able to learn when it's convenient for them.

3:03
Certainly along those lines, having the ability to take a class that's entirely online versus having to set aside time, you know, ‘I need to block out a certain number of hours to go to this place to learn’ offers tremendous opportunities to take advantage of courses that people might not have in the past.

3:25
I can give you a few more examples because I think technology is just such an expanding space for our adult learner community that we really should be continuing to think about and innovate when we design our learning programs.

3:39
So, for example, tools now allow us to have people interact with each other in very different ways, and we know adults like to connect with each other and create meaning as part of their learning opportunities.

3:56
We also can see tools like badging or gamification that are built into many of these platforms that both take advantage of the fact that adults are self-directed, but they like to see the progress that they're making and can be translational to their current employers, prospective employers, ways to say, I've completed this collection of learning experiences and this makes me a better employee or a better candidate for a job opportunity.

4:29
So again, I just think there's tremendous opportunity. I know a lot of folks are already innovating in the technology space, but as we get better tools, there's always opportunities to use them differently in the design of our learning opportunities.

4:47
So Catherine, I was wondering, how does psychology inform decisions about how people learn?

4:58
So, psychologists do a lot of research looking at how people learn material, understanding concepts like memory and how best to help people acquire knowledge.

5:16
I'll give you a few examples of how that actually plays out for the psychological science and how that applies to learning opportunities.

5:28
One area of psychology, behavioral psychology for example, talks a lot about ways that we reinforce people for engaging in a particular behavior, behaviors that we want to see them do more often.

5:46
Behaviorism also studies concepts like motivation and understanding ways to help motivate learners to engage with and ultimately use the material that we are providing in the training.

6:00
Another opportunity is really to understand what's unique about adult learners. And there's definitely been a lot written in psychology about adult learners and what makes them different than perhaps children and how they engage with learning materials.

6:19
One example is that adults are much more likely to pick out the learning opportunities that they feel aligned with, either an interest area or a career need. So they're more self-directed in choosing the types of materials that they want to engage with.

6:40
They also want learning that they know is going to have value to them. So is it relevant to something that they're doing or plan to do? Why use my time to learn about something if it's not really going to translate into something that has value to me as an individual?

7:01
I've talked a little bit about motivation. Another area that's big in psychology is diversity and understanding all aspects of diversity.

7:13
So that helps people who are creating learning opportunities to understand both the range of learners who might engage with their materials, but also ways to develop their materials that reflect the diverse cultures that make up our global community. And how to incorporate that in a way in our trainings that promotes more inclusivity amongst our communities.

7:40
So there's a number of other areas of psychology that certainly touch upon how people learn and engage and use materials that they interact with in a learning opportunity.

7:54
So I appreciate the opportunity to connect these things that many of us are familiar with, but don't always understand that this is really driven by psychology research community, other communities, but in particular, from my vantage point, the psychology research community.

8:16
That's really a very good insight, Catherine. And many times, we are so far removed from the foundation, the basic framework on which all our learning initiatives are built because it's become like a default setting. But it's really good to step back and see what is the framework on which this entire initiative rests.

8:38
And I think a lot of times we unconsciously do incorporate a lot of these elements, the examples you mentioned from various fields within psychology, behaviourism, constructivism, we do integrate, we do factor for all those things when we develop a robust instructionally sound learning initiative.

8:57
But I think it's a good idea to really step back sometimes and refresh ourselves on what it is really resting on.

9:10
I just wanted to build on that because you got me very excited by that comment. That's something I've been writing about quite a bit most recently is being cognizant of these frameworks, both in terms of how we design the learning opportunity, deliberately saying I want to incorporate elements of behaviorism or adult learning into my design of my program, but it also lends itself to evaluating the program.

9:39
So those aspects that I deliberately selected to construct my learning opportunity, that should be part of the evaluation framework that not only will help you understand how people have experienced the learning opportunity you created for them but could also be used to build a larger community that really centers on best practices in designing adult learning opportunities.

10:05
Yeah, that's a great thought because sometimes the application, there could be rich learning in terms of application of these various theories. I may apply it slightly differently from another professional in the same area. And that's where I think a lot of cross learning would really make this a very rich experience for the community of practice per se.

10:26
Yes, absolutely.

10:28
So Catherine, what in your opinion are some very easy ways to apply the psychology of learning when you're evaluating a learning opportunity? Are there any quick wins that we can achieve?

10:45
Oh, absolutely. When you think about our adult learners and I mentioned before they're self-directed, they're autonomous, they're independent. That makes them a great target for asynchronous learning, which is a lot of what we deliver in technology platforms.

11:05
So these are ideal candidates for developing technology-based learning opportunities.

11:12
I think another easy win is the type of reinforcement for adult learners is more internally driven.

11:21
So we don't have to do the work per se to continue to encourage them. If we get them the right learning experience, they're going to engage with the material. So it makes that a little bit easier a lift.

11:34
And again, the fact that adult learners really want to connect what they're learning with their life experiences and draw those connections together, makes them great learners to engage in discussion-based training opportunities.

11:53
So if you are doing a synchronous opportunity, you have a group that's already ready and primed to share with you, ‘this connects to what I did in this way’ and have that shared with other learners and build some great interactive experiences, which we know is also associated with carry over into eventual practice changes.

12:17
So I think they're a great audience for us to be thinking about and lots more opportunities for us in this space.

12:29
And it's interesting you mentioned the reinforcement part and all that really stems from all the work done in cognitive psychology, the process of learning, how do you internalize it? How do you make something go into long term memory and make sure the learner doesn't slide down the forgetting curve? I think this is where deliberate application would really be useful.

12:51
And another aspect that you touched upon the social part of learning, I think what's really great about the time we are in is that with these technology enabled platforms, even asynchronous learning formats can be teamed up with a synchronous format very seamlessly. You could have a threaded discussion going around the course which learners took, for instance.

13:13
Yes.

13:14
And then there are these platforms which actually allow you to collaborate with other learners within the platform itself. We recently worked on a mobile learning social platform, where you had the asynchronous part, but there were also opportunities at regular intervals for learners to put in their comments and for other learners to read those comments, like those comments, or comment on those comments.

13:41
So that way, although it was primarily an asynchronous format, it became synchronous as well, collaborative and a lot of social learning took place.

13:57
So Catherine, apart from the specific ways of application that you mentioned, can you share something around the broader framework of enablers for learning? Because sometimes we are so focused on just the learning content that this broader aspect of the entire framework gets a little neglected in some instances.

14:25
So what can we do to enable learning outside of the course, outside of the training?

14:34
Yeah, that's a great question. We've largely focused a lot on the individual in this conversation this morning and how do we engage with the individual to connect them with our learning opportunity.

14:48
But I also think we should not diminish or not consider seriously the broader context of learning and in many cases, individuals exist in organized structures. So is it an employer or an interest group or a professional affiliation group?

15:08
And to think about learning from a systems perspective is what we all want to cultivate are people who value continuous learning. They're what we call lifelong learners and they're always seeking to learn new things, apply new things.

15:25
And while adult learners are, as I've mentioned before, self-motivated, the larger environment or systems that they exist in can play a significant role in facilitating that process. Or maybe for people that are are less on that continuum of being that lifelong learner, a systems approach can be also very useful to have.

15:48
So what I mean by that is how do we develop organizational structures that foster a learning culture where people are valued for seeking out learning opportunities? They may be things that are self-directed, but could it be part of a system where people get some type of recognition by their employer for engaging in these learning opportunities?

16:16
So shifting that lens a little bit from what many of us traditionally have experienced, which is your employer tells you you must complete this course, this course and this course by X date, or you will have some type of consequence.

16:31
But rather looking again with psychology, the positive reinforcement piece of that is how can employers create systems that reinforce learners for not only completing a particular activity but rather creating a mindset where I'm going to continuously look for learning opportunities.

16:53
I think this is also predicated on employers having a robust repository of learning experiences because learners will want to engage with different types of material.

17:05
So having access to things that appeal to a broad range of learners, a broad range of skill sets, also would be a way that we can look at a systems level at helping to engage folks to continuously develop their knowledge and skill base.

17:24
Right, thank you, Catherine. Those are useful tips indeed. Because I think now more and more employers are looking at employees who have a learning mindset. Learning agility is very much in full focus. And as you said, unless we have a system that supports and rewards learners who seek out these opportunities, then even the best developed learning initiatives can kind of fall through the cracks.

17:55
Yeah, exactly.

17:56
The culture of learning, in fact, that's a huge draw for the young, for a lot of employees seeking employment opportunities. They look for an organization which values learning and gives them those required opportunities. And especially now with the urgent and very compelling need for reskilling and upskilling.

18:18
Yes, yes.

18:19
I think it makes all the more sense to focus on this broader framework, set up a sound learning ecosystem in which the learning culture is the glue that kind of holds it all together.

18:33
Exactly.

18:35
So I think you've already touched upon it. But what would you say are the five key things we need to remember when designing and developing learning solutions for adults?

18:50
Sure. And I'll try to throw some new things in here too. But I do like to make sure another learning tip, if you repeat things, it's helpful.

So I'm using my science too, but I think when you're thinking about learning solutions for adults, 5 things that I would stress is looking for opportunities for active engagement.

19:11
And as we've talked about, these can be synchronous or asynchronous with some of the tools that we have available to us.

19:19
So what are ways that we can help our learners practice their new skills?
How can we get them feedback about those new skills?
How do we engage them by asking questions of them about what their understanding about the material, using strategies like modeling and role play to really get people engaged with the new skills that we're sharing with them?

19:45
A second thing I'd suggest is think about your learning assessment strategies.

19:51
And this is an area that I think we should probably be giving a lot more attention to, it's pretty easy to revert or fall back to just doing a paper and pencil or a question based assessment at the end of the learning opportunity.

20:10
But you know, again, through technology we have lots of opportunities to shape that up a little bit.

20:17
So, what about having questions that appear periodically during the course?

20:25
Are we making sure that the questions that we ask are focusing on the most important parts of the learning experience?

20:34
Can we observe our learners and give them feedback on their performance?
And can we do that in a timely way such that people don't learn things that are incorrect?
And then we have to go back and say, well, not really.
It's much more difficult than if you give immediate feedback to our learners.

20:55
A third thing I'd suggest for folks to think about and I think this has become more and more salient, or maybe it's just a sign of my learning style as I get older, but to think about things like micro learning.

21:08
So can we provide learning opportunities that are impactful but are not ginormous in terms of the time commitment and the attention draw that it has for learners?

21:19
So if you do have a lot of content to deliver, what if you broke it into smaller modules and have people kind of complete them independently rather than having to sit down and do a whole long, lengthy program that would require a different type of attention span?

21:38
Micro learning can also be used in different ways to either prepare people for an upcoming learning opportunity. These are some things to think about to get you excited about this thing that you're going to be doing.

21:53
Or conversely, it can be used after a learning activity to reinforce some of the key points that were brought up.

22:01
But again, thinking about bite sized learning opportunities for busy adults, but also adults who might benefit from a shorter burst of content.

22:14
A fourth thing we've talked about a little bit, but I do want to highlight this is the idea of reinforcement, particularly when we're doing asynchronous online learning where they don't have the opportunity to live connect with an instructor.

22:31
So what are ways that we can help learners see that they're making progress with the learning opportunities. Badging or gamification, things like that, to show that they're progressing through the program. We all like a little nod to success. So that's something I think to think about.

22:54
And then the last thing is just to think about how you're connecting with your learner.

23:01
Do we want to incorporate examples, stories? We want to get to things that really connect with our learners, so they understand that there's real world applications of the material that you're teaching them. There's utility. So there's value to them for engaging with this activity. They're going to get something that they can immediately see will have relevance in the real world.

23:27
And also thinking about how abstract sometimes our learning experiences can be. So examples can be a wonderful way for your learners to say, ‘oh, this is what they're trying to say here. I get it.’

23:40
So I'm just thinking about that how can we be creative in the design of our programs to really effectively engage with our learner.

23:50
Wow, that was really useful, Catherine.

23:54
And I think the reinforcement part, we do follow something called spaced retrieval practice. And we do execute it, but probably sometimes we are unaware of the theoretical foundation from which this whole thing springs.

24:13
And of course what you mentioned about application, that's so true.

24:17
And I think more and more L&D teams are looking very deliberately at providing those kind of opportunities and following up with learners long past the actual learning point.

24:30
Absolutely.

24:30
I think that's where a lot of managers support and managers being oriented to take the learning forward for their teams, using touch points with their teams, even from a learning perspective. That's becoming increasingly important.

24:46
And yeah, micro learning, as you said, earlier when we got started with micro learning, the focus was primarily on the content part of it, how we break it down into manageable chunks, and so on.

24:59
I think another very great opportunity for microlearning that is becoming increasingly popular is microlearning assessments.

25:06
So at periodic intervals, you roll out these quizzes, which just help the learner recall what they had learned. And then we have also the teaching feedback, which serves as some kind of a refresher. So that makes sure that learners don't forget.

25:22
Yeah.

25:22
Thank you so much for all those best practices. Once we have all the all of this in place, the culture of learning we have set up with design and develop robust learning initiatives, how do we ensure that learners stay committed?

25:42
Is there some kind of a commitment to learning that we can elicit from our learners without it being forced?

25:51
You did talk about intrinsic motivation. And of course, sometimes extrinsic motivation also plays a very big part. But what is something that we can do deliberately to help learners commit to a change.

26:07
Well, there is a great example I'm going to share, and I'm going to challenge listeners to the podcast to do what I'm going to say right now.

26:15
So this will be an answer and a request of our listeners today.

26:21
The science of learning actually tells us that applications of the skills from a learning experience can be enhanced by something called a commitment to change process.

26:34
And that's something I've been incorporating in the trainings that I've been doing more recently. And people seem to be very excited about being challenged in this way. So it's a pretty simple thing to do.

26:49
So what I would like people to think about is what is one thing that you heard today that we talked about that got you excited and got you thinking, boy, I could tweak what I do a little bit differently or Oh my goodness, I could actually use this. I haven't tried that before.

27:09
So think of just one thing that you heard today and what I'd like you to do. And this is the important part is once you identify what that one thing is and think about how you would write a statement that declares your intentions to do that one thing in a way that you could evaluate whether you actually did that.

27:32
So an example would be maybe you're preparing a training coming up in two weeks and one of the things you want to do is to think about ways to bring a more real-world experience to the learners in that activities.

27:51
So write down a statement that would indicate what it is that you would specifically do differently based on the material that you heard today. And the writing down part is really important. Sometimes when we're together in a live group, we might share these with each other, but that writing down provides a little bit of accountability to ourselves.

28:17
If you take enough time and if you're committed enough to actually write something down, that's the first step in behavior change.

28:27
So that's what I would challenge our listeners today to think about. I hope there's many things that you heard that you would like to commit to change. But if we try to commit to too many things, we know we often fail in that regard. But one seems manageable, digestible, as we might say.

28:46
Thank you, Catherine. Those were very fascinating insights. You know, sometimes we do tend to think that it's enough to just give learners actionable next steps and leave it at that. But what you mentioned about reducing it to writing gets more skin in the game, so to speak.

29:05
So people are more committed and as you, as you mentioned, accountable to themselves when they see it in black and white.

29:14
Thank you for that very useful insight and thank you for all of the session. It was very interesting, insightful and actionable. I'm sure our listeners are going away with a lot of next steps that they can implement immediately.

29:35
And with that, we've come to the end of the session. But before we wind up, I'd like to just thank you once again, Catherine for joining us in our e-learning Champion podcast.

29:45
And for our listeners, I do have some good news. Catherine is going to be one of our speakers at our Learn Flux event in October. Learn Flux is a community of practice for L&D professionals, and we look forward to having you there. Catherine, once again, thank you so much for a great session.

30:05
Thank you.