L&D Challenges, Solutions, & Learning Culture: A Conversation with Sreekanth

CommLab Podcast with Sreekanth - Meeting Recording

1:33
Hi there. Welcome to the e-learning Champion pod. I'm Shalini, your host for today, and I'm thrilled to have with us Sreekanth from the Bueller Group.

1:42
He's a seasoned and versatile HR professional with over 15 years of experience. He excels in global HR strategies, leadership development, talent acquisition, change management, succession planning, employee relations, the works. Known for his dynamic communication skills, he thrives in fast-paced settings and collaborates with leaders and stakeholders to achieve measurable results.

2:09
Once again a very warm welcome to you, Sreekanth. We are thrilled to have you with us today.

2:16
Thank you very much, Shalini. I think it's a wonderful opportunity for me to be part of this podcast and I'm excited too and look forward to having a lot of conversation.

2:27
So let's dive right in with our first question, which is really a universal kind of question, which every L&D professional faces. What challenges do you anticipate or face in implementing L&D programs and how do you overcome them?

2:51
Thanks for this question. I think it's very appropriate that we start with this very fundamental question, Shalini, because we hear this question many a time from most of the L&D professionals.

3:05
My take on this question is that L&D basically, as a program, comes with its fair share of challenges, but I see this as an opportunity to innovate.

3:18
One big challenge is all about the engagement. How do you keep the entire session or maybe the entire value chain as engaging as possible? So that's one big challenge for sure.

3:33
Second one is having the buy in from the manager or maybe the respective leadership team, because we doing anything without having their buy in or conviction is something which is not going to yield a 360 view or a 360 betterment of the entire ecosystem. So that's my second point.

3:57
Third one, I also would say that the impact to what we can create, that's also often seen as a challenging one. It's not just about how we do or how we conduct this intervention or the training program. It's also about what is the impact we can create out of this.

4:17
So these are my takes on this.

4:20
Wow. Thank you so much for sharing the those. I'm sure every listener can relate to what you're saying. And it's interesting, you mentioned engagement all along the value chain because sometimes as L&D professionals, we tend to focus overly on one particular group. We forget that the ecosystem is made up of all kinds of groups, which significantly impact whatever we do. So that's really an excellent point.

4:47
Couldn't agree with you more about the impact unless we have this buy in from stakeholders and managers, that 360° view which you talked about, it's impossible. And I think then we end up working in a silo, in a glass bubble, and we assume that there is impact, and we can't see the entire big picture. So that's a very pertinent point.

5:17
So coming to the next question, Sreekanth, what strategies do you employ to identify learning needs and tailor your learning solutions to meet these diverse requirements of employees?

5:33
I see two parts into this question. One is ‘what are the strategies which could probably help to identify the learning needs?’

5:42
Second one, once you have the strategy in it, ‘how do you tailor that into the training solution to meet the diverse requirements?’.

5:52
So I try to keep my answer as bulletin as possible so that it's easy also for the listeners and the viewers to follow and grasp it. To answer the first half of the question in terms of what strategies do you employ to identify the learning needs, I think where we start is basically about first understanding the skill gap, which is known as the competency mapping or the skill mapping.

6:19
So you can probably start right from there. It could be perhaps in terms of, use the performance review as you one of the tools, the feedback from the managers, and then also the assessments to identify the gaps.

6:31
So this could be one way. The second one could be your good old methodology of going with the employee survey and feedback, because that is where you understand the preferences and career aspiration of individuals, right?

6:49
Finally, it's also about how do you map your training needs to your organizational priorities and the future skills. That's also something you will have to probably keep it in the back of your mind that will help you to, probably design the program in a very efficient way.

7:08
The second part of the question about how do you tailor the training solution?

7:14
I just wanted to dig a little deeper. So you mentioned the skill gap analysis. Do you follow any specific framework or competency model or is there any favorite that you have?

7:28
Yeah, especially when it comes to skill mapping, we generally do this with the people from the manufacturing background. So, the basic or the fundamental thing what we do especially with the skill mapping in terms of understanding what is the current level of the skill of an employee or the group of employees.

7:49
And then we try to keep a benchmark. When it comes to keeping the benchmark, we take inputs from various sources to understand what could be the potential benchmark possible. And then we try to do assessment with these people and then try to see where is the gap coming from.

8:07
So that's on the skill side, and similarly with the competency model. So competency more so for the staff category of people, more or less, we do the same methodology, but sometimes we also follow the assessment center to understand the gap.

8:28
Sometimes we also go with, let's say, you have a proper defined job description available and you try to understand the psychometric part of the individual employee, and then you try to match what is required for the job to deliver.

8:45
And what is the skill set and competency an individual employee has maybe through the assessment centers, or maybe through the 360 feedback again, and so on and so forth. So this will help us gauge what kind of gaps we have, and that will help us further build something into that direction.

9:05
Thank you for that very comprehensive response. Please go ahead with the second part, how do you tailor your solutions accordingly.

9:15
So how do we tailor our solutions? I think probably to start with to keep this as interesting as possible, Shalini here.

9:24
That first and foremost thing every L&D professional has to keep in mind is that any solution we try to give, should always be aligned with the career growth of the individual or the team or the organization. That's fundamental because your career growth and the kind of training that you're trying to give cannot be in the silos, right?

9:44
So it should be a marriage between both of these. Say, for example, as long as someone shows me career growth by encouraging me to be a part of a training program, I see a clear connect versus you not showing me any career growth.

10:01
And then you try to tell me that Sreekanth, you try to do this piece of training programs or maybe you attend this workshop. It's like a two different topics which runs always in parallel.

10:13
So for me, aligning the training with the career growth being the first point, it's also important that we personalize. It's not the good the old methodology of, let's say download some inspirational videos. Let's do a role play. Let's do only the group discussions, only sufficient for the people.

10:37
We have to make this a bit more personalized for our people in terms of the experience, what one can get, this is all about experiential learning and maybe also something which is based out of the role and goals.

10:52
So that will help an individual to stick to it. That OK, this is something that I can probably groom myself further based on these training programs. And this is where I feel a value add to my career growth. So the second point is all about personalizing your learning for me.

11:13
And the third one is also I think something which I'm sure you will like, because it's about the mode of the training or maybe the formats.

11:21
The attention span of individuals is maybe getting deteriorated year on year because of the social media, because of the lot of distractions that we have around us. So probably you need to have a great blend of the learnings, especially different formats of learning. It could be micro learning, it could be a nuggets, bite size learnings, e-learning modules.

11:51
And the techniques which are related to on the job training, and learn from the peer group, mentoring, coaching. So these are some of the things which will really keep people up for learning and keep them starving towards I want to learn something today, right? So these are my takes, Shalini.

12:16
Right, Thank you. That's really interesting. And like you said, without tapping into carrier aspirations, it becomes just a top down mandate, OK, you have to take this training. But when you see how it fits into your overall journey and your overall development, I think that's where the motivation really kicks in. And of course, there are those typical trainings which everybody needs just to be able to do their job, something like an ERP training, for instance, some new software. But yeah, for the most part, that's very true.

12:51
I think that's something where we as L&D professionals sometimes tend to not emphasize as much the tying it to the career aspirations bit. And thank you for highlighting that.

13:04
I think in a sense you've kind of already answered my next question, which was can you describe your approach to designing and implementing effective L&D programs?

13:18
But please feel free to dive in deeper, maybe you could share an example of some innovative learning and development initiative that you were a part of or implemented, or you're likely to implement and what are the results achieved?

13:36
It's an interesting piece. Probably I can just refer to my experience, what I had come across sometime back during my assignment with one of my previous organizations, we had this challenge of infant attrition. When I say infant attrition, it is with respect to people quitting the organization, leaving the organization within a span of six months to one year. So that's what we call infant attrition.

14:10
So, this is where you have to bring in your expertise as an L&D professional to the table about what kind of tailor-made solution could probably help you. Instead of just following the good old methodology of some communication training or soft skill training programs, which may sound absolute to people.

14:37
But then as a learning and development professional, you have to tailor the solution in such a way that it should really hit the nail. It should really be a solution to the problem what we have.

14:53
So refer to my experience, Shalini, what you asked about, as I was mentioning we have had this infant attrition and it was me and my team who came together to understand what are some of the root causes of this infant attrition happening, which is creating some turbulence in the entire employee life, or employee culture within the organization. So we came up with a simple yet effective intervention called ‘New Manager Assimilation’.

15:30
So what does this mean? Your New Manager Assimilation?

15:32
Basically to understand, to hear the feedback, to hear the opinion, to know the pulse of these people during the early stage of their career.

15:43
Wonderful.

15:43
So this was the bottom line. How do you do that?

15:47
Again, it was a very simple survey, what we had, a prepared survey having a couple of categories of questions . For example, a category which starts from how was your onboarding experience to how are you feeling? Are you able to really set your goals?

16:07
And are you already aware of your deliverables, your KPIs, to an extent where you probably go and ask them do you have an opportunity not just to take feedback, but also to give feedback?

16:22
So that is kind of a very tailor-made framework of survey questions that we had prepared and then based on the outcome or the output of this particular survey, it was quite surprising for us to see where people had a lot of challenges in terms of getting assimilated with the organizational culture in the beginning. That is where you really need the help of HR professionals or learning and development professionals to pitch in and support individual employees.

16:59
So this was a clear hit for us. Based on the outcome of this, we actually chalked out plans in terms of not just giving training or support for our newcomers or newbies, but also to go back and see what kind of organizational culture we have.

17:19
Do we need to do any course correction with existing people, or do they need any support in terms of allowing them or letting them welcome newbies into the organization or maybe the next generation of people to be a part of their overall journey?

17:37
So this is one of the fantastic examples that I always remember Shalini. This is the kind of tailor-made solution as an individual, you really have to give, which will have a direct impact on the bottom line of the business.

17:51
That’s a really great example, Sreekanth. In fact, there was a time when we used to think L&D plays a key role only in skill development. Once employees are fully into their jobs, we develop and build their skills, upskill them, reskill them. But increasingly, I think we're all becoming increasingly aware that we play a critical role all through the employee life cycle, right from onboarding, during the onboarding, and before the onboarding, preparing managers, preparing all kinds of target groups to make the on boarding smooth, to welcome employees, to assimilate them.

18:33
As you said, I believe you used the word new manager assimilation.

18:37
I think that's really a critical component. And we found this in our own experience in working with our client organizations, there was a lot of emphasis on equipping managers to be supportive of their team's learning, not just their performance, but also their team's learning goals. So that's really interesting how this small but critical piece can pivot things around. And in your case, in the example, I think arrest that infant attrition.

19:09
And it's very heartening when you see such visible results because the impact is there for everyone to see. So I'm sure that was a highly satisfying example. And thank you so much for sharing that.

Pleasure and thanks for asking that question. It was quite intriguing.

19:27
So coming back, I believe you mentioned the culture of learning, a culture of growth. How do you get those newbies into that learning culture? Stepping back, can you share something about how do you foster a culture of learning and knowledge sharing among employees, so that you promote ongoing development and also collaboration?

19:56
It's a good piece of question again from you, Shalini. What we do is actually, in the earlier days we used to call it HRD, human resource development department, which was exclusively meant for the development of people, only for the traditional way of giving the training, and so on and so forth.

20:18
But then now, what is happening in the market or as part of the trend is that people do not want learning or maybe training as an additional topic, to be a part of their plate when they already have so much of things.

20:39
So that is where the role of HR or role of an L&D professional to make the learning lifelong learning.

20:47
So that's the culture what you probably have to inculcate in the minds of the people. So that's the first thing. When you know what you want to do, when you know about how to make lifelong learning as a culture of the organization, there comes your road map, there comes your mission into the picture.

21:08
The first and foremost thing is that you have to make learning a part of their routine. It's not the kind of thing where OK, on one fine Wednesday or one fine Thursday, there is a half a day program available. You will have to go and attend.

21:23
Gone are those days, right. You will have to inculcate the culture where people can really refresh their knowledge maybe once in a day, for about couple of minutes, as a part of their lifelong learning.

21:35
Second, I see leaders playing a very pivotal role here because leaders are the one who should champion the learning by actively participating and sharing insights

21:52
That is where you can also draw your inspiration from, because we have great leaders in history and also present, who have lived leaps and bounds when it comes to the topic of learning.

22:06
So you can, one, draw the inspiration from there. Second, you can also look up to your leaders within the organization. Third one I would say, peer learning or knowledge-sharing communities of practice.

22:23
It's more on the internal knowledge sharing platforms, which would definitely help you to keep that momentum in terms of continuous learning, rather than making it as in a silo.

22:38
Here I would like to talk about one interesting story when it comes to the peer learning. With my current organization, we have something called Failure Diaries. So basically what we do is exactly.

22:55
This is a new one. Sounds interesting.

22:58
Yeah. Because I mean, if you look at India or Asia as a culture, we belong to a culture where we do not encourage failures. We consider failures always as the end, right? This is the kind of culture that we are into. But what I strongly believe is failure is just a postponement of your success, that's all.

23:24
Maybe instead of you embracing success today, you are just keeping a little more time for you to bounce back and be stronger to embrace success.

23:36
So we have had started this journey called Failure Diaries where an individual tries to share the failure and more than sharing the failure, it's about what is that learning you have had out of the failure? Because all of us do not live for such a long time to learn from our own mistakes, right?

24:00
So, out of 60-70 years of your probable expected age, you have to learn from others’ mistakes. This is something very interesting, one that we started. It's had a fantastic response from the people as well.

24:21
Yeah, can imagine because like you said, we don't have time to make all our mistakes. So just learning from others, and especially if people are willing to be vulnerable enough to share about their failures.

24:38
So I'm very curious, Sreekanth, how did you get people to start sharing? Because like you said, especially in Asian cultures, it can be seen as something one wouldn't want to put out there. So how did you overcome that? Was there resistance to this? And how did you overcome that initial resistance, if any?

24:59
Again, it's an intriguing point for me.

25:04
I think definitely, it's not something where you welcome to share even. Consider this example. We always try to point out the success of an individual rather than the failure. So that is where our minds are tuned to, always talk about the positives rather than about reflecting on your learnings out of failures.

25:23
This goal is also in the direction of your fixed mindset versus growth mindset. We initially had some of the challenges in terms of making people share their experience on the other side of the coin.

25:40
But then, I think the role of the L&D professional is something which really matters the most over there. Because we have to create that psychological safety for people and tell them that, look, this is not something that we are trying to project or brand your failures. But then we want the rest of the people or maybe your own good colleagues or peers to learn from your mistakes, so that they will not commit the same mistake tomorrow. They could probably get an opportunity to learn from your mistake and then you could be the role model for others not to do the same mistake, right?

26:16
So when you establish or set that in the right context, that's one, Sharini. Second one, we always ask our people to be as curious as possible. You know, no one knows everything, but everyone knows something.

26:39
So what a fantastic anecdote it is I got to come across about this some time ago. Not everybody around us knows everything, but probably every one of us has some knowledge, something you can probably learn from that, that will really help you learn and make your journey as fulfilling as possible, as rich as possible.

27:04

As long as you can make that context right and create that psychological safety, I think you are there.

27:12
Wonderful, wonderful. So how do you implement this Failure Diaries? Do you go department wise or is it once a year kind of a thing where people really were willing to share about it? Or do you do it within the communities of practice? Just intrigued.

27:37
I think the first thing we wanted to do is that we wanted to keep this as closer community as possible. Just to make sure that people do not take this the other way around. We completely went with the volunteering instead of taking the entire department together. And we say that, OK, you talk about your story of failure.

It goes against though, it's so selfish if you do that.

28:08
Exactly so.

28:11
But you know what? To our surprise, we have had people who said that, yes, why not?

28:19
I would probably share with you something that I have come across during, let's say, execution of a project or maybe during one of the negotiations with the customer or maybe when you are actually doing some accounting, what could be the challenges you have come across?

28:38
So we actually compiled all those volunteers first, to have them on board and tell them the purpose because that makes everything clear.

28:49
We made it quite clear and then explained that this is the whole goal of our initiative, and this is where we can learn from each other and grow. So this is how we started.

29:05
Fantastic really. And that gives you so many rich insights into future L&D initiatives too.

29:11
It informs your decisions because if you find enough number of people struggling in one area, then you can get a clear road ahead for that. I'm sure this serves many purposes. And it's fantastic how you've nurtured and built this culture of learning. And I really like what you said about curiosity because unless you're curious, you wouldn't want to know anything. And if you don't want to know anything, you're exactly where you are, say, 10 years back. So that's great.

29:44
You know, I was just reading about the most in-demand skills today. I think it was workplace LinkedIn report, or I forget the name of the report. But learning agility is one of the top skills. And that is something every employer is also looking at increasingly, even those in recruitment and interviews and so on. People try to find out whether this person has that sense of wonder and that drive to learn and thereby to perform.

30:21
So it's wonderful how culture is shaped by these.

30:25
How closely does L&D work with, of course we co-own a lot of things, HR and L&D, we co-own and we are increasingly co-owning a lot of things in the present scenario, in the present landscape. But how closely do you work with your L&D?

30:52
I think more than about working closely, it's about your own family, right. I do not see this to be two different verticals. This is where I come from. I think the L&D sub function or vertical is the most important the member of the HR family.

31:18
This is how I see our interaction within the HR or within the HR as a function is just on a day-to-day basis.

31:31
We always have the exchange and we always see that the non-L&D team as the sounding partner for us in terms of helping us design and develop the overall framework of the L&D training.

31:57
Thank you, Sreekanth. Please go ahead.

32:03
Since you mentioned curiosities a while ago, this reminds me that since the attention span of people is so less that even when you are sitting to watch a movie, you probably will be doing dual things at the moment.

32:23
You may be watching a movie and you will also just scrolling or flipping the Star reels. So that's why it's called child-like curiosity, right. So I just refer back to my son, who’s an eight-year little school going boy.

32:40
He always asks me questions, no matter what it is, whenever there is a conversation happening between me and my wife, he always has something to ask me. So that's the kind of curiosity. But again, in our culture, we do not encourage people asking you a question. It's viewed as arrogant. It's been viewed as, you sound to be a person with attitude and not something which is very welcoming.

33:16
I think it's very important as a part of our lifelong learning. Keeping that curiosity that can really make you a lifelong learner. So this is something what I just wanted to share. I couldn't agree with you more because I totally agree even about this aspect of where culturally we don't really encourage too much of it, but that's the only thing which will make you learn.

33:45
And we have a tendency sometimes to ask too many questions, but it's when you ask those questions that you're actually looking to learn, to find answers. I think that's a very key trait for a lifelong learner. So thank you for highlighting that.

34:03
Coming to the measurement of L&D programs, how do you measure the success and impact of these programs?

34:15
I think that's yet another one of the most asked questions for any L&D professional, how do you create the impact? How do you measure, how can you make the results to be as tangible as possible?

34:32
I think I’ll just start with this example, Shalini. Again, refer to what I mentioned about us having various interventions, various training programs. This reminds me of one of our initiatives, something called the ‘1st 10 people leaders’. So, you have a group of people from different functions who are becoming first-time people leaders in their career, right.

35:01
Then you obviously come across a lot of people-related challenges, a lot of managing performance, driving the results kind of topics where you see some friction between the new people-leader and the team.

35:18
So it's always been a question to the entire learning and development department as to how do you balance or what do you do for such situations or for such first-time people leaders?

35:31
And then came this particular solution we actually custom made that we have first understood what are the expectation of one, the bosses or the managers of this first-time people leaders, and 2^nd, understanding the expectation from peers, third one, from the subordinates.

35:54
So there is more or less a kind of 270 or 180° feedback. We understood what are some of the things required for you to be a successful people person faster, it could be driving self, driving the team, and driving the organization.

36:10
So these are the three different angles at which we have looked at and we custom made the complete program which has resulted in more than 90% of participants coming out to be more confident and managing teams better.

36:27
At the same time, the employee engagement score of those respective teams also saw some visible improvement which also resulted in a better attrition within the team.

36:39
So what am I trying to say is that these are the results, the measures, that I came across when we implemented this particular initiative.

36:46
The message to the community is always get immediate feedback soon after you complete any training program. Try to take the feedback because as long as they are in the session or soon after the session, you get the real feedback. Do not take it after a week or a month or so. It is not going to help you.

37:07
And second, knowledge retention and skill application. There are various methods which I do not want to talk about, starting from the Kirkpatrick method of measurement to do anything.

37:18
You can probably do, let's say going to the managers understanding or taking the feedback. There are methodologies. One of the ways is to understand, as an indication of effectiveness of the learning and development, is the retention of the employees and the career growth, right?

37:39
No matter what we do, if you do not have direct impact on contribution to the retention of the employee, then all our L&D programs are of no great value add. So that's why that's also one of the indications as long as you see people are really retaining and blooming further within the organization.

37:59
That's also one of the measurement criteria to see that all the L&D topics or all the L&D interventions, what we are doing is yielding the results. This is how I feel and believe in Shalini.

38:12
Yeah, thank you, Sreekanth. You nailed it. Sometimes we get too much into the data part, but there are some simple measures which we can really see very tangibly even without going into Kirkpatrick Level 4 or Level 5. But sometimes we may not even have the budget to do. But this aspect you touched upon, just having employee retention and seeing them investing in their future within the company, growing, wanting to grow, and doing the hard work required through upskilling themselves. I think, , that's something that we really should be looking at very closely.

38:59
So coming to my next question, we live in a very exciting stage with the technology changing overnight, the landscape is evolving like never before, especially with AI tools and AI technologies being in the centre of everything that we do.

39:22
So in what ways Sreekanth, do you perceive, or foresee AI tools shaping the future of workplace learning?

39:34
I was just wondering why this question is still not asked. Thank you for this question.

39:40
I would like to start with this statement that everyone has in mind, but the reality is that AI will not replace you. I think you will be replaced by the person who knows AI.

39:56
Yeah, yeah.

39:58
So you should know about that. If you do not learn AI, probably somebody else will learn about AI and then that person could probably replace you. So that's very clear.

40:09
Coming to the use of AI in the L&D space is huge. Starting from having your data-driven decision-making in L&D to as easy as developing or designing content or content creation. So the role of AI is phenomenal, right?

40:34
As long as you as an individual, you as a learning development professional, how do you use all the technologies which are around you, not just confined to AI, it could be anything, any technology. I think that's where your edge is.

40:51
Let's assume for a minute you are about to design a training program, let's say on conflict management.

40:58
And if you are tech savvy, you always go and visit LinkedIn. A lot of stories, there are a lot of content which you can probably see on LinkedIn, some of the examples, some of the cool tools about conflict management.

41:18
So that is how you can probably learn. You don't have to every time go and refer to a textbook, every time go and ask somebody, every time hit Google. Now the information is available abundantly across you.

41:32
And the sky's the limit as long as you are tech savvy. Of course, we have a Big Brother AI you can always go and refer to.

41:40
But then it also goes a bit off in direction in that what are the different platforms you can use it.

41:47
So I definitely see the role of AI as very instrumental. You cannot resist this. You have to embrace the role of AI in your learning and development topics.

42:03
Absolutely, absolutely. And as you said, when you know how to use the AI, that's something that no one can take away from you.

42:14
That becomes your superpower, a superpower. A power user of AI is more likely to grow and make a bigger impact.

42:29
So thank you so much, Sreekanth. It's been such a pleasure talking to you. Before we wind up this session, I have one final question.

42:36
What advice can you share with L&D professionals who want to grow their career? I believe you've partly answered it because you know, the previous question, you did say go out there, look at what's there, learn, don't wait for formal training. But I'll just leave the question open again.

42:55
I think it's been now for me a journey of the last 15 plus years. Yes, of course, for the first few years only in L&D.

43:04
And then later I have brought on the horizon from L&D to other topics like talent management, talent acquisition, and the overall HR as a strategy, especially when it comes to professionals who are into the L&D space, I always say that be a business partner, not just a trainer.

43:28
You are not meant to be a trainer, but you are a business partner, right? You have to enable the business as a trainer. You are not a supporting vertical, you are an enabling vertical.

43:41
Second, stay business focused. Anything and everything you try to do should always align with the organization goal which drives the impact.

43:52
Third message is try to embrace the technology. This is very, very crucial.

43:58
Leverage AI today, the digital learning, data analytics to give that learning experience to people, right?

44:09
The 4th one is measure and showcase the impact. I think it's very important, the need of the hour, so people will stop telling you that L&D is just another cost center.

44:20
No, it's not just a cost center. We are actually enabling people and you can clearly demonstrate the ROI, the return on investment to the business.

44:30
So that is where people start respecting you and consider L&D to be another serious business.

44:38
So you have four messages, Shalini. I firmly believe be a business partner, stay focused, business focused, embrace the technology, and measure and showcase the impact. So this is the full message which I would like to share it with all my L&D friends and professionals.

44:55
Yeah, thank you so much, Sreekanth. You put it together so neatly and so concisely, it's so easy for us to remember what all you've shared. And I think the banner behind you says it all, make your impact. And thank you for sharing all those wonderful insights and some best practices from your experience.
It's been truly a pleasure having you.

45:20
And I'm sure our listeners have enjoyed listening to this because you've really gone into the practicalities of each of these challenges that we face and given us a lot of things to think about. So thank you once again. It was a joy having you.

45:40
It's been my pleasure. Thanks for refreshing my knowledge too.

45:46
Thank you and thank you listeners for tuning in. Do stay tuned in for our future podcasts as well.