Rance Greene Talks about Instructional Story Design

CommLab Podcast with Rance Greene - Meeting Recording

1:24
Hi everyone. I'm Shalini, your host for today's podcast session on the e-learning Champion pod.

1:31
I'm very thrilled to have with us Rance Green, who is the founder of needastory.com and the School of Story Design for those who struggle with storytelling at work. His methodology, Story Design,
gives leaders and talent development professionals a very systematic and creative way for discovering who their audience is and how to persuade them to take action on new ideas.

2:01
And he helps leadership teams, entrepreneurs, and instructional designers discover that each of them is uniquely equipped to tell the best story for their audiences.

2:14
Rance is also the author of Instructional Story Design, a practical guide for developing stories that train. Rance trains, teaches, coaches, speaks, and writes often on the benefits of using stories to connect people to one another.

2:33
So Rance, a very warm welcome to you once again, and we're really excited to have you join us today.

2:39
Thank you so much, Shalini. It's a great pleasure to be here.

2:46
So Rance, I'd like to kick start this session with the first question.

2:52
Can you tell us a little bit more about your instructional design story methodology?

2:58
We all have used storytelling in our e-learning courses and in our classroom sessions. So just wanted to know a little bit more about this very specific methodology.

3:12
So Shalini, when you were introducing me, you used the word ‘uniquely prepared’.

3:18
Your audience of instructional designers are uniquely prepared to deliver a story-based course to their learners.

3:35
You mentioned my book, the instructional story design. The book goes through this methodology in great depth, but to give you just a snapshot of what the methodology is, the core of instructional story design is the story design model.

4:00
Let me describe what that is, and I think that will help your listening audience to really grasp what the instructional story design methodology is all about.

4:14
If you think of story at the top and action at the bottom, this is the story you want to write for training.

4:25
This is the action you want people to take as a result of training.

4:30
We want to fill in this space in the middle to make sure that our story is concretely connected to the action we want people to take.

4:39
We don't want some random story. We don't want some fluffy story in our training.

4:44
We need our training to be efficient, slim, and focused.

4:50
So that story has to contribute to that bottom action that we want people to take.

4:57
So Shalini, may I ask you a question? What do you think of as the elements of a story?

5:05
Think about stories that you watch, that you read, stories that you tell.

5:10
What are the elements that make a story a story?

5:14
A great plot. Characters we can relate to, or maybe sometimes not even relate to, but compelling characters.

5:29
And a happy ending.

5:35
I'm so glad that you used the word relatable because that is how I define the two essential elements of a story for training.

5:46
Let's fill in this gap where story's at the top, action is at the bottom, with two of the story elements that must be present in a story for training.

5:56
The first one is relatable characters. And I use the word relatable because our learning audience has to have some empathy for the characters in our story for training or they're not going to care. They're not going to care what happens to those characters.

6:17
The other element of story that must be present besides relatable characters is strong conflict.

6:31
Think about the stories that you love to watch. Those stories contain a lot of conflict in them, and often there are many conflicts along the way that keep you hanging on. You want to stay so that you see what happens to these people.

6:54
And I use the word ‘strong’ because I want to remind instructional designers especially that conflict must be present, and it needs to be as strong as possible.

7:12
Often I think instructional designers, we're an accommodating and generous bunch of people. We like to show people the exact way to do things.

7:24
And so introducing conflict might be a little bit uncomfortable because we want to just show this shining example of how everything goes so well in this perfect world that nobody actually lives in.

7:38
So relatable characters in strong conflict produce this wonderful thing inside of us.

7:48
When you're watching a story and you see characters that you like and they're in conflict, how does that make you feel?

7:58
You'll be rooting for the good guys and hoping they'll find a resolution. And you're emotionally invested in whatever they are facing because it pulls you in. The story pulls you in, and you start walking in their shoes.

8:13
You bring up so many good points. Yeah, you're walking in their shoes. Stories kind of act like a flight simulator.

8:20
The things that are happening in the story are preparing you for real life because you're kind of living it through the characters.

8:29
That's a wonderful attribute of stories.

8:32
Also, you use the word hope, you're hoping that these characters will find some resolution.

8:40
So when you put relatable characters in strong conflict, it equals a desire for resolution.

8:59
So relatable characters and strong conflict equals a desire for resolution within the person who's watching that story.

9:08
Once you've achieved a desire for resolution in training, the story has done his work.

9:16
Now we are riveted. We cannot wait to see how this story ends.

9:22
But the story ends at the height of that conflict. And now that desire for resolution has been sparked, we want to know how this ends.

9:35
The next piece in the story design model is instruction. And that instruction is what completes the connection between the story and the action.

9:49
So we have relatable characters and strong conflict which equals a desire for resolution. Once that desire for resolution has been sparked, we're open now to receive instruction.

10:02
We're on the edge of our seats to receive instruction, which motivates us to take the action that the training was developed for in the first place.

10:13
But that instruction does need to be designed in a way that really maximizes that desire for resolution.

10:23
So now we can ask questions about the story.

10:29
What was going on?

10:30
Why was this conflict in the story?

10:32
How do you feel about it?

10:34
Why do you feel that way?

10:36
What would you do instead?

10:38
And all of a sudden this process of self discovery begins in the training with story at the center stage of it.

10:50
So what are your thoughts about that model so far?

10:54
It sounds fantastic because I hadn't thought of so many levels.

10:58
For me, it was just the plot and preferably a happy ending and somehow pulling the learner in to root for whoever's dealing with whatever is happening out there.

11:10
But you've touched on a very important point Rance. There should be a strong need for resolution, the learner should be involved enough to want a resolution. And it won't work if it's just something that doesn't pull them in, draw them in fully.

11:32
Shalini, you're not alone in wanting a happy ending. That's what we all want, you know.

11:37
But if you provide the happy ending in the story, the desire for resolution is gone.

11:46
So, if you do want to share a story that shows the perfect world, how everything should go, you should wait until after instruction has happened, after they have critically thought about the story, solved problems based on the story, and gotten feedback on their work, then they are ready to see how this might play out.

12:10
But really, as you're instructing, think about this.

12:14
Let me give you an example that kind of brings all of this together. Let's say that you're training managers and these are new managers. These are newly promoted managers that used to be individual contributors, but now they've been promoted to manager and some of them are even managing the teams they used to be on.

12:40
So some unique challenges there for this group of people.

12:44
And so the story might go something like this.

12:48
Maggie is a new manager. She was recently promoted from being an individual contributor.

12:55
She was a great performer. And so she has now been promoted to managing people who were on her own team.

13:03
Her own team has been pretty enthusiastic to support her and she's about two months in to leading this team.

13:12
At first, things were going great. And all of a sudden, they're starting to miss deadlines and people seem to be silent.

13:23
So she does what every good manager would do. She has a meeting and she invites everybody to the meeting and she tells everybody, hey, guys, you know, we've been missing some deadlines here. What's going on?

13:40
Nobody says anything.

13:44
She's like, is there something that I can do to help?

13:51
Finally, Lee speaks up. And Lee says, you know, Maggie, we're just adjusting.

14:03
Brianna speaks up. Yeah, yeah, you know, we'll get back on it.

14:11
She says, well, is there anything I can do to help us out?

14:16
Nobody says anything.

14:18
And she dismisses everybody. It's kind of awkward.

14:22
Then at the very end of the meeting, when everybody else has left, Jared comes up to her and says, you know, Maggie, I didn't want to say this in front of everybody, but I see Lee on YouTube all the time during work. And Brianna, she's got this side job as a real estate agent, and she's constantly making appointments during work hours.

14:54
And I really feel like me and Bobby are picking up the slack for everybody.

15:03
Maggie couldn't believe this.

15:06
What? How long has this been going on? she asks.

15:10
Oh, about a month, he says.

15:15
Well, why didn't you say something?

15:18
Well, I figured, as long as the work was getting done, that was what was most important to you.

15:27
Maggie goes back to her office. This is not what she was expecting management to be like.

15:35
Now, if that was the story for training and I were to ask you Shalini, how do you think Maggie feels right now?

15:44
What would you say?

15:48
Not too happy, confused, wondering if she had taken the right step by going along that career path. Because things were working perfectly well before for her and suddenly there are all these obstacles to progress. And the team dynamics have gone for a toss seemingly. All of which would be highly upsetting.

16:20
So you've given some good plausible reasons or feelings that she might be feeling and some plausible reasons why she might be feeling that way.

16:31
Can you think of anything that she might do in the future, now that she knows the state of things?
What should she do next?

16:44
Well, she needs to have those difficult conversations, but she may not be ready for it because those were her peers till just a month back.

16:57
Should she meet together with the whole team again? How would you handle it if you were in her shoes?

17:05
I would certainly not bring it up with the whole team. I would take it up privately, one-on-one.
And yeah, I would still be walking on eggshells because they were my peers till just a month back.
So it's a very delicate situation and a great deal of sensitivity is required.

17:28
Now, let's take a break from that. Let me ask you, how did you feel as I was telling you the story and as you were thinking about the story and figuring things out?

17:45
Yeah, I felt a lot of empathy for Maggie actually, because here she was, a probably a hard-earned promotion and expecting things to go really well and then facing something like this very early on.
That could make her second guess all her choices.

18:13
Good, good, Shalini. Those are all awesome observations.

18:17
So hopefully, if this were a course that you were taking, you would be very invested in figuring out how to help Maggie out, how to get her out of this mess.

18:29
And so as you are reflecting on the story that just happened, as you said, you had empathy. Maggie was a relatable character. She was in strong conflict. She was not really handling things very well.
Something was going amiss even before this meeting. Somewhere along the way, she got out of step with best practices for managing or it wouldn't have gone as far as it had gone and she needs a way forward from here.

19:04
And so hopefully you are feeling that conflict really helps you to stay engaged, to answer the questions such as reflecting on what just happened, especially the emotional part of it, solving a problem.

19:23
I asked you, what would you do in her place? That's a solve question.

19:28
It's making you critically think about the story. I don't have to say much, right?

19:32
I was like, what would you do? And that gives you the impetus to start solving the problem.

19:41
Then I provide feedback to you on your answer.

19:46
And that is the cycle of story, reflect, solve, feedback.

19:54
Once you've told that story once, you don't need to tell it again.

19:59
Just reflect, solve, feedback. OK, next action, reflect, solve, feedback.

20:06
Next thing I want to train you on reflect, solve, feedback. That story remains in the center of that training as you are reflecting on it, and solving problems based on the story.

20:19
And then getting feedback on your work and the self-discovery that takes place in the story design way of doing it, is amazing.

20:32
Yeah, you had me totally hooked to the story.

20:39
I think in a nutshell, that would be the instructional story design methodology and with a little example to go along with it.

20:50
So Rance, I was just wondering how is this really very different from the scenario-based kind of trainings that we develop?

20:59
So scenario-based training is a specific way of formatting the training in that you get a short story if you will, that leads to a decision point and from that decision point the story branches in whatever direction you have chosen, which ends in another decision point and then the story branches again according to what you have chosen.

21:38
So that's scenario-based training.

21:41
Story design is a level below that, a more foundational skill, because in order to tell that story in each of those decision points, you're going to need some basic storytelling skills, story writing skills.

21:59
The challenge with scenario design is that you may avoid giving them the benefit of conflict because they may choose correctly every single time and never have the opportunity to experience conflict.
So it may be a very conflict-less story in a scenario-based course.

22:23
When you're creating scenario-based courses, you really have to work hard to make sure that the conflict gets in there in the story itself.

22:34
And if you're talking about standalone scenarios to illustrate various training points, then it gets difficult to get the learner invested because those are characters he’s meeting for the first time, every time they're meeting a new character. So probably, as you said, you've got to work harder there.

22:54
So that is so spot on Shalini. An example of that would be, Jasmine receives a $50.00 gift card from a vendor.

23:10
Should she take it?

23:12
Like, sure, take it. I don't care. Whatever.

23:15
I don't know this, like, do we care about Jasmine? No.

23:19
Is the conflict even relevant? No, it's not even real life.

23:23
So yeah, you are totally spot on about that. Because these little things that we call scenarios do not have relatable characters. They just have a name. And the conflict is so surface level. It's very contrived.

23:44
Thanks, Rance for that really great intro to your methodology by actually pulling me into your story.
I can see why this works. I can totally see that. So Rance, I was just wondering, can you share any success stories on how this approach has transformed L&D initiatives?

24:08
Sure, sure.

24:09
So I didn't always have my own business. I used to work in corporate and I was overseeing compliance training in a healthcare organization. And one of the areas of the company was a large enterprise. One of the areas in the company was experiencing some compliance issues that were rather sensitive, such as favoritism and other issues that needed to be addressed.

24:42
And so the management of that area called us and said, hey, can you come and basically, slap people's hands and say, no, no, you shouldn't do that.

24:50
And I was like, no, we're not going to do that. But what we will do is bring you a story.

24:57
So I created a story, and it took place in a coffee shop. And the employees of the coffee shop were having issues such as quality, perceived favoritism, and various other issues that mirrored the issues that were taking place in this company. But it was taking place in a coffee shop.

25:33
And so we created the story, and I wasn't facilitating the story, but I designed it. I gave instructions to the facilitator.

25:41
They took it, they told the story and then they asked questions similar to the questions that I asked you, and they were each assigned a character in the story and they were to answer the questions based on who they were in the story.

26:00
And so you had the owner of the coffee shop. The managers in the room may not have been the owner, they might have been the janitor, or they may have been the barista.

26:19
They begin to then answer the questions and as they were solving problems for this little group over here in a coffee shop, they were solving their own problems.

26:30
And then they were given feedback based on their solutions.

26:35
Nine months later after the training, we were contacted by the management. And they said we just want to thank you for coming down here and doing the training with us. Anytime we feel ourselves slipping back into old habits, we say to one another, remember the coffee shop!

26:58
Wow, that's the power of a well told story.

27:05
So they didn't remember bullet point number six on slide 30, remember we shouldn't do that anymore. They remembered the story and the story contained everything that was needed for behavior change. So that was one of my first experiences going full out with story design that I saw a direct and such powerful impact.

27:38
And from then on, I was sold. And I was like, yeah, we're doing storytelling for every compliance training that goes out. Every compliance communication that goes out is going to be story-based.

27:51
And what happened is that the culture of compliance training changed from something that people dreaded to something that people actually looked forward to, because they were excited about the characters, some of them were playing the characters. I recruited some employees to play the characters.

28:15
And then it changed the culture of the company too, because after we began story-based training, we would do a periodic culture survey of the entire company. Ethics and compliance rose to the top as the most valued aspect of the culture of our company.

28:40
Amazing.

28:42
Ethics and compliance rose to the top because we had humanized it so much through storytelling, that it was naturally at the top of everybody's mind. People could say the names of the characters at lunch. They knew them so well. So that's my success story.

29:04
I think the keyword you used is humanized. The human-connect and a little bit of theatre because they were all role-playing and that's the best way to really walk in a person's shoes. So yes, it's amazing what you shared about compliance training rising to the top, because as you said, it's the most dreaded kind of training ever.

29:36
I wanted to ask you, do you think this storytelling story design approach lends itself well to certain types of trainings, you mentioned behavioral change, wherever there is a need for behavioral change. So are there any areas where you think it works particularly well and some areas where you feel it could be an overkill?

30:06
I get asked that question a lot. So any kind of business storytelling, training, presentations, sharing a vision, any kind of message that you have in business, it only needs a story if change is required. If change of some sort is required in the person who is listening to the message or taking the training.

30:36
Training by definition demands behavioral change. There has to be some sort of change, otherwise why are you training people?

30:49
So I would say any type of training qualifies for story design.

30:55
A lot of people think of soft skills as a natural place for stories or leadership topics as a natural place for stories.

31:07
I view compliance training as a very natural place for stories. Technical training. I have a lot of folks who have come through the School of Story Design, and they are technical trainers, and they want to know how to tell stories for technical training, application training, software training, safety training, and those types of courses benefit greatly from storytelling as well.

31:36
Where you don't want to tell a story in business is where no change is really needed. So if you're giving a status report, you're going around everybody saying where the state of things are, then you probably don't want to launch into a story at that moment.

31:59
Unfortunately, a lot of training has become actionless and has become more like, oh, let's just be aware of this. Being aware of something does not necessarily necessitate a change. We're hoping for a change, but it's not explicit. But that's the topic of some of the pitfalls that we fall into as instructional designers.

32:31
So, yeah, I would say any training qualifies for storytelling.

32:41
I like what you shared about any meeting, a significant meeting, or when there are important announcements or when there's a transformation that leadership is aiming for, it really begins with stories. It's not the hard data and the numbers that speak, it's really the story along with the numbers and the data which drives that impact and catalyzes action, shall we say.

33:17
And thanks for clarifying that bit about where you think it's applicable, because I think I went along with this popular opinion that’s probably soft skills, behavioral training, compliance also. I was just trying to think how would I apply stories to say a training on tax, a software for something to do with taxes, for instance. But when you mentioned that a lot of technical trainers have been incorporating storytelling even in software application kind of courses, that's really something. Yes, and quite eye opening.

33:58
So Rance, how do we gather these stories?

34:03
You know, during the consultation stage in L&D, we're running around trying to gather all the required inputs based on what is the desired learning outcome. And at that point, I think we all get hit with tons of information. So how do you really gather these stories that make this training come alive?

34:26
I love that question because it's really at the heart of a lot of the pitfalls of instructional design and certainly instructional story design.

34:36
When we go into conversations with stakeholders, I like how you put this here, the consultation phase, because we should perceive ourselves as consultants, not only designers and developers, but as consultants to the business. You know, we are the training part of that business.

34:59
So when we go into a conversation with a stakeholder, initially we're looking for three things.

35:08
We want to know what the root problem is, what the business outcome is going to be as a result of training, and if training is the right solution. And I would say it's usually part of the solution. It is rarely the whole solution. There are so many factors at work that determine whether or not somebody actually takes action on what we're training them to do.

35:39
So during that first conversation, make sure you know what the root problem is, you know what the business outcome is going to be. It should be measurable. And if training is the ideal solution. And the way you can know that is does there need to be an increase in knowledge in order for the people to be able to do this? Do they need to get new skills, and do they need need to adopt new attitudes?

36:09
So knowledge, skills and attitudes, KSA. If so, then training is a good solution, right? If not, make a recommendation and save yourself some time.

36:25
So know that going into that initial conversation. After that, once you've determined that training is a good solution, in your conversations with stakeholders, with subject matter experts especially, there's two things you want before you start designing.

36:47
You want to know who you're designing for. So every new audience that I designed for, whether I am going there in person to deliver the message or I'm doing it virtually or I'm creating an elearning course for them, I want to know who they are. And I want to know more than just their role, their title, the demographic stuff.

37:15
I also want to know what's going on at work right now, what's stressing these people out? What do they fear? What do they value? How are circumstances at work affecting them?

37:31
Because when they come into training, they're not coming in as just a brain, they're coming in as a whole person to experience this. They're emotional beings as well as intellectual beings.

37:49
And the wonderful thing about stories is that they speak to both. You're exercising your mind and your emotions at the same time as you watch the story unfold. And that's one of the huge benefits of storytelling.

38:03
So first you want to know who your audience is. The second thing you want to know is what you are training them to do.

38:09
And Shalini, this amazes me every time when I get a group of instructional designers together, how difficult it is for them to do that. And we have kind of gotten into a rut of first of all, leaning on learning objectives.

38:29
So be aware of fill in the blank.
Understand. Fill in the blank.
You should know, fill in the blank.

38:38
Well, the problem with all of those things is that you can't do those things. There's no action involved.

38:47
So a good comeback question to a subject matter expert, and I've had to do this, I can't even count how many times is can you tell me what somebody who is aware of this does? What do they actually do? Can you tell me a story about it?

39:08
And I get them involved a bit in storytelling. And we make it really concrete, down to earth, very logical actions that people can take who are aware of this. So it drills down to observable actions.

39:27
And I call this list of actions, get this ‘an action list’. And so my team calls it an action list. I train my stakeholders to call it an action list because I want everybody in the room to know we are training people to do things.

39:50
So know who your audience is and what you're training them to do.

39:54
I think using the right words really changes the perspective because suddenly it stops being something passive and something which demands a next step or motivates or inspires a next step.

40:11
I couldn't have put it better. That's such a great way to put it. And then once you have those things, you can use your audience profile to create relatable characters.

40:22
And you can use your action list as the source of conflict, you can put your characters in conflict with these observable actions and boom, you got a tailor-made story for that course.

40:35
Wow. I can see how it all connects together. So Rance, I'm wondering, when you talk to these subject matter experts, they share their stories. Do you also gather some prospective learner stories, something straight from the horse's mouth about what are their pain points? Because sometimes, we end up talking just to the subject matter expert who conveys what they believe are the pain points of the target group. So, is there some an additional step here? I know it's not always practical or feasible given the time constraints, but how do you tackle this?

41:18
I would say most times I rely on the subject matter expert because I don't have direct access to the learners. But I have had occasions when I did, and when I did, I did a full out learner analysis, which is very time consuming. So, if you have the time to do that, awesome.

41:36
If not, just ask those same questions of them and find out. I mean, sometimes I'm training the board of directors. I'm not going to get an audience with the board of directors. So, I have to rely on legal or other people who interact with the board to find out who they are.

41:53
Sometimes I will Google learners like this board of directors, I Googled them. I found out who they were, where they went to school, because it was a small group, just to get a sense of where they all were. They had written books. They were famous people. So, it was easy to find out who these learners were.

42:14
But usually I do rely on the subject matter expert to provide that necessary information so that I can create really relatable characters for my story.

42:27
So, do you let them know that you are going to create these characters based on the diverse perspectives that they may be sharing with you? Because that probably will help them see what kind of inputs they need to give you better.

42:43
So, a lot of times what happens is I'll rope them into storytelling, and they don't know it.

42:55
You know, like could you tell me a story about that?

42:59
Like, OK, let's give that person a name. So let's say that Barry is this sales associate.

43:07
Where would he be when there might be an infraction of a competitive intelligence?

43:16
You want to train these people on competitive intelligence.

43:18
So let's talk about that.

43:21
Where would Barry be?

43:22
He might be in a restaurant, at a networking event.

43:32
What kind of conversations would he have when this competitive intelligence might come across his path?

43:38
Well, he might be talking to this person from another company.

43:41
And so they begin to tell the story without even really knowing it.

43:44
I'm like, you know what? That's a great story. Why don't we use that in the course?

43:50
Wow. So, there's a lot of investigative work that goes on as part of the foundational work.

43:57
Well, you're doing that work anyway. So you might as well use it and make it concrete because once you get into the design, things go very quick with story design.

44:10
It's very efficient because you already have this model that you're following. You don't really have to put too much thought into how am I going to format this? You're going to have a story, you're going to reflect, you're going to solve, you're going to have feedback.

44:25
You have this model already in place. So all the work that you're doing on the front end makes this other part just flow.

44:36
So I can see where it's both systematic and creative. I can see where the structure comes and where the creativity aligns with it. I think that's really impactful.

44:50
Yes, that is so well put. I think that a lot of people find comfort in the process, and it frees them up to be more creative.

45:01
It sounds like a fantastic methodology. And I have one more question. I really wish I could go on forever because I could just talk to you all night. It's evening here in India. It's night actually. But one final question.

45:19
So which you've kind of actually answered along the way, with this methodology, do you think it helps the L&D function become more strategic rather than just being order takers?

45:35
Yes, it does. In fact, I have a huge interest in helping L&D become more strategic partners. And instructional story design is such a holistic way of approaching instructional design that respects and builds relationships with stakeholders because you become intensely interested in how this is going to impact them personally as well as the company.

46:06
It gives you empathy for the subject matter expert who is caught up in their own world, living and breathing this one topic their whole day. They know all about privacy inside and out, and they are stuck in that world.

46:22
And it's your privilege to come in and help them sort out what you actually want people to do when somebody calls them and tries to social engineer them. It is our privilege to really respect the learner and to give them an experience that respects their intelligence, their ability to observe the story, to critically think about it, and solve problems based on it.

46:59
And what I talked about compliance training earlier, our compliance training was performance-based.
And I don't know that I've seen a whole lot of compliance training that was performance-based. A lot of it is just awareness, but it is performance-based and that's what people want. They want to you to tell them what to do. Being aware of something doesn't change anybody.

47:27
It might change a couple of people, but teaching them what to do, giving them practice, doing it in the course itself, is a respectful and humanized way of approaching learning.

47:43
And so all of those things added up, really do accentuate the partnership that you can have within the business as literally a problem solver and a consultant rather than somebody who just takes your stuff and makes it pretty.

48:06
But you are a consultant, and you are making a measurable difference in the company. So yes, I do believe that instructional story design accomplishes that.

48:19
It's a very beautiful way of putting it Rance that it's a privilege. This is the first time I've heard it being used in this sense, it being a privilege to be able to help our learners without insulting their intelligence because so often our programs end up doing just that. That's a beautiful way of putting it. And yeah, thank you for that.

49:21
So Rance, OK, I have another question. So can you share some something recent that you have developed, some recent initiative?

49:40
Last year we started this course, and it uses story design to teach instructional story design. So it's very meta, but it's called the Instructional Story Design Experience, and you can find it at
schoolofstorydesign.com.

49:59
And the exciting news is that very recently we have partnered with another group called Parity Deals, where if you are logging into the School of Story Design from India, then you receive a discount on the course. And the parity deals figures out what the appropriate discount is and all that stuff.

50:27
So if instructional designers who are listening to your podcast or watching this video would like to visit schoolofstorydesign.com, our Instructional Story Design course is actually available to you at a discounted rate. And we wanted to make that available to all areas of the world that otherwise might not be able to swing it.

50:54
So very excited about that and the course itself, it's a blended learning course. It took us three years to put it together.

51:06
I'm intrigued to use the story design methodology to teach instructional designers about story design.
That's fantastic. It's like the Matrix.

51:15
Yes, it's incredibly meta, but my e-learning developer is amazing, and she did a wonderful job putting the e-learning part together. I put together some videos made in Vyond and just professional videos, as well as a ton of downloadable resources that you actually use during the course. It's a nine-chapter, 6-week course and you practice, practice, practice, practice leading up to a capstone project where you build a story-based course.

51:53
So if any of your listeners would like to join us, we would love to have them.

51:57
Yeah, this sounds like a fantastic opportunity to really dive deep into this methodology and see something come alive. I'm sure our listeners who are from India would love to avail of this. And I'm sure there are other listeners from different parts of the world who would probably still want to go ahead and try this. Yeah, absolutely.

52:22
OK, Rance, I know I keep saying I have just one last question, but this time I really do have just one last question.

52:28
What advice would you give L&D professionals who want to incorporate storytelling into training programs and grow their careers in this field?

52:38
I would say the number 1 piece of advice that I would give you is know your learners. Get intensely interested in who your learners are. Create an audience profile for that group and you will begin to have empathy for them. You will begin to think what could I design for these people who are going through this situation right now, who are dealing with these circumstances that would really respect them and give them an opportunity to take a course that by the end of it, they will say, I am so glad that I took this course.

53:27
That's what I would say. My number one piece of advice, get intensely curious about who you are training.

53:35
I think we talk a lot about measuring the effectiveness of training. But what you said just now is the acid test. If a learner can step away saying, wow, I'm really glad I took that, that says a lot.

53:49
Yes, yeah. Thank you so much, Rance for the session. And it's been really fascinating this methodology and the possibilities, the opportunities that lie ahead, where if we very deliberately and carefully integrate this into our L&D initiatives. So thank you for giving us a great sneak peek into what goes behind the scenes and what is it that we all need to be focusing on to get the kind of outcomes that we desire. So thank you once again.

54:22
And listeners, thank you for tuning in and do stay tuned in for our podcasts that are coming up next week. Thank you, Rance, once again, pleasure to have you here.

54:34
Thank you, Shalini. Bye bye.