All About Commercial Training: In Conversation with a Learning Leader

Conversations with a Learning Leader

0:06
Hi everyone, welcome to the e-learning Champion’s Pod. I'm Shalini, your host for today, and I'm delighted to have with us John Sturgess, Director of Commercial Training at Incyte. John's job, to put it in his own words, is to help his employees be brilliant in front of customers and to help the business grow. So John ensures that they get the best support, the best materials and tools that they need to do their work. He also provides them with carefully selected and curated training which is centrally sourced to ensure company alignment but locally delivered for flexibility. Most of John's experience has been in the pharma and biopharma industries, with a few years in the HR software industry, specifically SAT solutions. John is currently based in Switzerland where he oversees the regional commercial training function at Incyte. If you want to know more about him, you can connect with him on LinkedIn.

1:12
A very warm welcome to you, John. We are so delighted to have you with us.

1:17
Thank you for inviting me.

1:20
Before we dive into today's session, I'd like to mention that John speaks for himself, and his views on training are his own, they do not represent the point of view of Incyte.

1:31
So John, very delighted to have this discussion and I'm looking forward to a lot of insights. Let me dive in with the first question for today. What challenges do you face in implementing learning and development programs and how do you overcome these challenges?

2:00
We talk about challenges, about implementing learning, and such. For me, and it's more and more often occurring, it's the perception of training. What does training bring?

2:14
And I think the big challenge is that training hasn't always been bringing the value that it needs to bring to an organization. So people are then thinking they're being trained rather than being developed. So they're not seeing behavioral change, they're not feeling the value from the training that comes through. I think consequently, you end up with the way that training has happened, particularly after the pandemic, it's more, here's some information, go read it, sign, perhaps if it's SOP training, for example, compliance training, its read and sign, it doesn't really bring value. It just becomes a paper exercise.

2:53
I think that also has happened over time when I joined the industry in training. I joined in a development role, which is what training has always been used for. It's a very useful role, but you always had a mentor, someone who had experience in training, someone who was a professional trainer with qualifications, knew about the training cycle, knew about the different steps through TNA and delivery and evaluation, and so on.

Now, it's still seen as a development role, but there's no mentor. So the person that's dropped into training is just delivered some training and they don't know really what to do. So they do the best they can, but often it's just a PowerPoint. Often, it's just delivered on in a virtual meeting. But people don't get the opportunity to practice, there's no scenarios involved, they may not have any hands-on role play, for example, in the case of selling skills. So it becomes very one directional.

3:47
And I think as a consequence, the value of training, what training can bring to an organization has been eroded and diminished. And that's the biggest challenge.

3:55
How do we ensure people see value in their training? One of the best ways, of course, is to train them in a way that develops and delivers behavioral change, so they can see value in themselves, they can see value of the training to their job. So, at the moment, I think that's the biggest challenge, the value that training can deliver.

4:18
That's a very important point that you've highlighted, John. I'm sure L&D professionals face it everywhere. People are coming in and expected to hit the ground running, but people are recruited into a role where they're expected to be experts from day one.

4:34
So if the market changes, you could have an experienced sales team and you recruit them for their experience, right? Now, experience could mean they're highly skilled, or it could just mean they've been in the job for many, many years. Depends how you define experience.

4:52
But if they come in and then the market changes. It's always changing, it's a constant change, then they're no longer experienced, right?

4:59
If you think about situational leadership, we have to apply the right situation to their role and how the marketplace has changed. So they need to be trained as newbies again essentially, if things have changed significantly. So it always comes back to this question of value. If the training isn't adding the right value, even if they're new or if they're experienced, then the training is no good.

5:26
That's a very valid point. And I think that also ties into the role of where does the training function sit today in the larger context. Where do you perceive it? Where does the rest of the company perceive it?

5:46
This reflects my opinion, not the company opinion. I think I'm reporting into the wrong place, but I think it needs to sit in a strategic role. At the moment, it's very tactical. And I think that's the situation in most companies, unless you've got a chief learning officer or someone like that, chances are you're going to be dropped into a very tactical role. But I think it needs to be part of the organizational development and that kind of strategic position, with the trickle-down tactical role. But if you're not at the table, then you're typically playing catch up.

I have to find myself lobbying for training to make sure my initiatives are included and taken into account. But often you're playing catch up because somehow, we need to do this, we need to do that. And if you're not part of those decisions at the beginning, then you're playing catch up. I think the L&D function or the training function, and I'd make the distinction, L&D for me is HR, and training is commercial for me at least. So there is a distinction. And typically L&D will be up there on the leadership team or in a strategic role. But I think training needs to be there as well because otherwise you're caught out and then you're always scrambling around the budget, which has been the hallmark of my career since I started. Where do you get resources? Where do you get budget? And if you're not at the point of decision making strategically, then you're constantly scrambling around.

7:25
I think you've hit the need on the head when it comes to the role of training being what it is now and where it needs to be. And the challenge is once you're sitting in the strategic decision-making seat, it's easier to have conversations. Which brings me back to the next question, which I think you've answered partly already with importance of aligning training with organization roles.

7:53
Do you have any best practices, John, on how one can get a seat at the table to make sure that we are aligned perfectly with the business?

8:07
You think about painting a room, right? Is there a point in painting a room white when the company wants it red? So you have to be aligned to the goals.
But in the commercial training function, I look after the commercial training, the communications training with customers, we need to make sure everyone's compliant. We need to make sure they know the right information and they're up to date with their skill sets. So in that respect, it's very easy to align with the corporate goals. But of course, if the corporate goals change, if there's new market we're opening, if there's new products, all that kind of thing, then again, you need to be there at the beginning so that you're not playing catch up all the time. But in L&D, of course, it's subtly different and you'd need to speak to the L&D and HR experts for that side of things. But for me, commercial training is a little bit easier to stay aligned to the goals, I think.

9:07
Yeah, I think it's a little dicier in certain other areas. But like you said here, the alignment is very clear. It's almost intuitive, that you have to be totally aligned with the business or what are you training your employees to sell and what are you training them to improve their efficiency?

9:32
If you've got someone coming in, if you've maybe got a new leader in the organization, maybe a new HR head comes in or something like that. And they want to develop the organization, make it more of a learning organization, then clearly you need to change the culture, right? And you need to be in training and L&D needs to be part of that. And so you need to introduce new KPIs, perhaps the number of hours trained, or the number of people trained, or whatever, the impact, look for Kirkpatrick Level 3. As I always say, what behavioral change can we drive? So if you're not part of that process, then again, you're always playing catch up.

10:09
But if you're trying to drive cultural change or behavioral change, then you need to be there at the beginning, like I say. So the reporting line, the position of learning and development, the position of training needs to be the right place for me. I span a number of brands across the the organization, but I report to only one part of that. It would be easier for everyone, I think if that role, span of control, was above the franchises, it's at least the decisions that are made. And it's not just in my current organization, it's historical as well. People don't know what to do with training.

10:49
So John, to circle back to another point that you made previously, you were talking about how especially in the pharma field, you have a mixed bunch of people. You have experienced people, you have freshers. And sometimes there is this tendency to think that the more experienced people really don't need training as you pointed out. But then there are new products, there are new circumstances which are driving the company forward with new technologies, new customers. So, how do you keep training relevant for such a mixed bunch of people? And how do you overcome learner resistance in this case if you have any experienced people?

11:36
It's a good question. And it comes back to my point about value, right? If they don't see the value, they'll shut down. I've introduced a couple of new technological, mobile learning and such recently. And the first hurdle, like you say, is getting people to try it, right? For me, I start with a cohort and help have them evangelize the training, if you like, and spread the word. And then you see it spreads virally, or it spreads through word of mouth.

12:12
And this week I had one of the more experienced salespeople contact me to say this is really good,
it's really helpful. It's helping them remember training they did a few years ago, right? It's information that they don't use every day, but how do we keep the plates spinning? We have to keep topping up piece by piece and every now and then.
It's really good to get emails like that because you know now other people in that person's team are going to hear about this and they'll want to do it. And so it is word of mouth. It's that little cohorts first, maybe a pilot, maybe just a broader group, but you’re obviously not going to roll this particular piece out across the region, across Europe. It doesn't quite work like that, you have to do it piece by piece.
But the initial spark, you have to find the right people to turn that spark into a flame and spread it across the right cohort of people. But it comes down to the value at the end of the day. If they can't see the value, there's no point. And I'm going to keep saying that. That's how it is.

13:21
True. I mean, that really covers a lot of angles. If you can hit that one sweet spot of value, then I think a lot of things fall in place and like you said, you're not constantly playing catch up.

13:38
Yeah, with the sales team. I have a sales background many years ago, but they have a certain degree of competitiveness. So if you can introduce that into your solution, and in this case it's mobile learning with some gamification, they can see how their contemporaries are doing, how their peers are doing. And suddenly you start getting people competing in terms of what they've learned and being able to demonstrate what they've learned. And so that adds this extra dimension. It's been really helpful. And it's engaging and motivational as well for the learners.

14:14
So yeah, it's very, very helpful. So I think this kind of covers your approach to designing and implementing effective training, because I think the training sales teams is one of the biggest challenges. I mean, it's not like compliance training or any such thing, here I believe there's more pressure, the stakes are higher. Of course, even for compliance, the stakes are very high, but in the sense that you see very dramatic results if it's done very well, the training for sales, the go to market team, for instance.
So, John, I was just wondering what role do you think technology should play in modern L&D strategies, because you did mention gamification and salespeople being highly competitive, they take naturally to this kind of an approach. So how do you leverage technology when it comes to commercial training?

15:27
I can go back many, many years with this one. In my training role. I've always been working with technology. So I can tell you some history, let's go back in time. When I was a salesperson, I used to map out my sales data with a very early form of Excel many, many years ago. And I built a macro that mapped everything, charted everything, did a little bit of analysis for me. My manager saw it. The word spread that I've got this fantastic macro that helps makes things very, very easy. And that led to me being asked to help with the roll out of ACRM system. I'd never done any training before. I mean, this is software training. It was very much you click here, click here, you're standing at them. We got everyone in a classroom and had everything shown on the computer screen in the front of the class and walked people through it. But anyway, apparently, I was quite good at that.

I was spotted by the head of training who had then sort of earmarked me for when the next training role came up. And it did come up 12 months later. I was invited as part of my development because he was manager development. And as I say, training was seen as a development role.
So he asked me, did I want to go into training, and I said, yeah, sure why not?
And personal circumstances had just allowed that opportunity to move at that point. And anyway, sat down at my desk on the first day and he comes in with this big lever arch file, if you remember those, and it had e-learning written down the side. He dropped it on the desk. He said there's your first project. So the first thing that I was introduced to was technology in learning. And this is still in the days of computer-based training and CD-ROMs, and that sort of thing.

The big step for me was to use a 28k dial up modem to try and do some e-learning and it took forever. I started with was a knowledge quiz. It's just like a series of 10 questions. It was pushed out to users through a system back in the day that was known as docent mobile, and it was very clunky. We were the first people in the industry to use it at Eli Lilly.
That’s obviously forward thinking back then, a very good company got this thing going and people would answer the 10 questions and send it back.

17:56
I'm a bit of a dinosaur in terms of my technology. I started many, many years ago, but I have kept up with the times and so I've always used technology through its evolution.
Obviously with the pandemic coming in, people suddenly thought, oh yeah, we can use technology, and we'll do a Kahoot. What was it, Kahoot or whatever, the Zoom quizzes and that sort of thing back then. But I think it was used badly and comes back to my point about adding value. So what I've always tried to do is use technology appropriately as in the case of this gamified mobile learning app.

18:34
And now of course, we've got AI, which I'm sure we'll talk about in a moment. But it's key that the technology complements the learning objective, and it's not used for the sake of technology. And I think during the pandemic, we were forced to use technology and that caused problems. People became a bit overwhelmed or a bit oh, not another virtual meeting, not another virtual training.
And then it was just used to keep people active and keep them involved. But I think it was used inappropriately a lot of the time as well.

19:06
So yeah, as long as the technology meets the training, works with the training objective, as long as it's still adding value again, then it's something I've used right the way through. And there's loads of uses for technology.

19:23
We can talk about AI now if you want, or we can talk about other things. But yeah, we can use it for coaching, assessments, benchmarking, performance, all sorts of things.

19:36
I think you make a good point about not using technology for the sake of using it but making sure it really matches and meets your learning objectives. So what are your views on our digital solutions?
I mean, they are here to stay, but where do you think they're especially impactful, and where do you think they're least impactful?

20:01
Digital solutions, well, they're used inappropriately, like I say, but I think for me, we have to stop differentiating training as classroom or digital or something. I think we have to select multi-channel engagement, right? Everyone sees it as digital versus something else. But actually, it's just another channel. And for me, I want to consider training as training, learning as learning. It doesn't matter what channel you get it through, provided the channel is used appropriately and providing it's meeting the learning objective.

20:38
So in terms of digital, the app that I'm talking about complements classroom training or complements an e-learning module. It's not a replacement for it. They just work hand in hand. It allows me as a training manager to cover more of my population than I otherwise could. It also means that I can follow up a classroom training a lot easier without having to call everyone back in again. We can push things out to them and then they, you know, see how people are doing their home study, if you like, or the follow up training. It just allows me to do more. I don't want to say more with less, because it costs a lot of money, it just means I can do more on my own. So that's how I see digital. It's not a replacement for anything, it's just allows us to be more effective.

21:35
Right, right. I really like that point you made about viewing training as a whole, because once you conduct, then the prejudices jump right in. You know, somebody may not be very fond of one particular modality. It just makes things a little more complicated than it otherwise would be.

21:55
Absolutely. And I think as well with the people of my age, they think some of them struggle with accessing their learning management system, using CRM, for example. And soon as you say, oh, we're going to do some digital e-learning or whatever, then the shutters come down. They don't want to know. That's not how they learn. And again, it comes down to embracing change and moving with times. But if they can see the value in it, it's complementing some other learning that they're going through, then it becomes a lot easier to work with technology.

22:35
That brings me to my next question, John. Can you describe an approach that you took towards designing and implementing some effective learning program, some innovative approach and example, something that worked in the past? It could be just any success story, or it could just be your approach towards this entire gamut of learning and development initiatives.

23:06
My philosophy around training is if you want to be good at something, you have to train. Some people are naturally talented. But even then, if you're a naturally talented sports person, natural talent only gets you so far and you have to train. If you're a salesperson, then I would expect you to keep up to date with the foundational skills, the foundational knowledge. I can provide the ingredients in your recipe, but I would expect you to know what to do with them and how to cook it, and how to cook it well. But you need to have that foundational base. And that doesn't just happen, it doesn't just remain in place. It has to be something that you work on all the time.

24:02
But then, of course, you might have a particular special meeting or meeting a particular customer and you want to get it absolutely right, you have to prepare for that.
My last company that I worked at, we would work so hard on getting the sales pitch right. We would rehearse, we would practice, we would ensure every click of the button worked properly. There was no room for error because if you missed the sale, it was a three-year sales cycle or five-year sales cycle. So, if you missed that, then you're stuffed and the company doesn't thrive, it doesn't grow. So it was critical to make sure that’s absolutely pin sharp and absolutely perfect. Leave no room for error. And that's the philosophy I would always try and encourage.

As a training manager or in L&D, you can create content, you can invite people to train and take part in training, but it's not entirely on your shoulders. There has to be personal accountability for people to come in and step up and do the training. Otherwise it comes down to this. People have had training done to them and pushed on them, but if they don't seem to value it, then they're no further forward. Training needs to be embraced. And the only way to do that, coming back to my philosophy, it's about the value. It's about making sure people understand why they need to keep, to use the cliche, sharpening the saw. Without that philosophy, without that personal accountability, it's a bit of a challenge. But in terms of personal successes, there's a lot. I mean, I'm really pleased with the mobile app that we've got at the moment. Just the way that everyone is embracing it, the way that when people use it, they're engaging with it, it's bringing teams together. It's very motivational.

26:06
It's something that's really lightweight that they can do when they're waiting to see a customer and downtime if they've got a couple of minutes to spare. If you're familiar with the Duolingo app for learning languages, it's very similar to that. And it's very gamified. It's a lot of fun.
It doesn't work for everybody because some people like to be very studious in the way that they learn and approach learning. But for the vast majority of people, for the field teams particularly, it's very, very user friendly and engaging, and they're very pleased with that and I'm very pleased as a consequence.
So it's the one thing that I get the most feedback on, the most positive feedback on at the moment is that app today. Yeah, pleased with that.

26:44
Yeah. That sounds like a great example. And I'm sure learner adoption has gone up.
It's currently being translated across Europe, and we rolled out across all the markets.

26:57
Wow, that's fantastic. So coming to AI, John, what are your views on the integration of AI and L&D? Are you using it? Is there anything you'd like to share?

27:17
Yeah, I think it's really quite interesting. It's quite a lot of fun at the moment. If you think about AI, when people started talking about it in a big way, a couple of years ago. But prior to that, it was kind of everyone was talking about machine learning, talking about algorithms, and they were the buzz terms, and AI came along, and it was a buzz term.

27:41
But actually I think this one's got a little bit more traction and there's more practical uses for it across the industry. If you think about research and development, think about digital twins, all that kind of thing, it really has a lot of use there. But from a training perspective, I think it can be used for all kinds of different things. And yeah, we have solutions. We're looking into different solutions. I see it as a particularly useful tool for coaching, for helping people practice in role play situations. Perhaps, if you have an avatar that's talking to you and listening to you and giving you feedback on that kind of thing, I think that's a really exciting thing to explore.

28:34
I used it the other day just to portray some words that I had out of, historically we used word clouds to see what, but then if you can use AI to pick out the trends within that. And actually I was using it to literally picture paint 1000 words.
Here's 1000 words. Show me what that means in terms of a picture. So now you can visualize your 1000 words in a way that perhaps you couldn't do before. I think AI has a couple of issues still to iron out, the version that I think the industry adopts would be internally trained. But if you're going to ChatGPT in the big wide world, then it's using the information off the Internet, which is inherently racist and sexist. So once we've ironed out those problems, then I think it's got a very good use. But I think for me and for the industry, we need to make sure that our version of AI is compliant, is regulated and is appropriately trained. If we use that version, then I think we've got some really powerful uses for it.

29:50
And especially when it comes to sales teams, the areas you mentioned, such as role plays, you could have all kinds of variations. You could have conversations touching on many nuances. All of that becomes very possible dynamically if your AI bot is trained well.

30:15
The other day I actually was interested to understand about developing a learning pathway curriculum, based on some inputs that we've got. If you put job descriptions in and say, come up with a learning plan for that, I was interested to see what would come out of it. And yeah, it was 80-90% usable. The problem was it's using North American terminology for some of the items and a lot of the terminology wasn't relevant for Europe. So it still needs this sort of human overview to make sure that the solutions that you're proposing are appropriate. But I was quite impressed with what came out. It's very interesting.

31:01
I think that took a lot of heavy lifting out of the mix. That's pretty impressive actually, if it would analyse the job descriptions and come up with some kind of learning paths or skills that are required. I think that's a great start. And, not every organization has invested in AI-based platforms, so we can still get a lot done using the AI tools, the standalone AI tools out there.

31:41
Well, I was gonna say, it is something that we talk about a lot at work because I don't think we've even considered what the opportunities are with AI. I think this has got more traction than some of the other items that I mentioned, especially around learning and development training. But it's only as good as what we can propose to it at the moment. As it evolves, I think it'll make suggestions that perhaps we hadn't thought of. But yeah, there's a lot of conversations in the office about it at the moment.

32:21
Great. So John, you talked about providing value and learners being able to see it and only then would the motivation kick in, and so on. So how do you ensure that continuous learning and skill development, that mindset, that culture of growth, that culture of learning, how do you build it? How do you nurture it? Are there any best practices you'd like to share?

32:58
Well, 90% of it is banging my head against the wall, but 10% is the inspiration. I think for me, it's about finding the right stakeholder in the organization who you can work with, who can lobby with you, who can evangelize with you. That's the way to do it because you can't just rock up a steering committee and present fait accompli. You need to lobby it, make sure everyone's on your page. And then the steering committee becomes a rubber stamp because everyone's already with you. There's no way to shortcut that. It's about ensuring that you've done the right due diligence, that you've done the right needs analysis. And even through that, it's getting people on board with your plans. But yeah, there's a lot of lobbying involved, a lot of networking, especially if you know that the budget that you need isn't your budget. It might sit with a brand, it might sit somewhere else.

34:12
So there's no point in coming up with a training solution that you've been asked to come up with. But even so, if people can't see the value in it, they're not going to pay for it. So there's a lot of behind-the-scenes work going on, a lot of lobbying. And then, bringing people with you, with your goal, with your vision. It starts with a lot of walking the corridors, knocking on doors, and selling your solution basically.

34:43
I was actually about to ask you, how do you even get started? But then I think you just mentioned it's a lot of conversations, a lot of knocking on doors. And so essentially, you're building your own L&D brand in the organization.

34:58
Actually, on that point. When I joined the organization, my predecessor had done a really good job and she's a marketeer at the organization and she's really good at marketing. So training had already had a really nice brand to it. So, everything I do carries that brand through because I didn't think it was necessary to change. Previously in other jobs, other roles, I've had to do that myself. But actually I was lucky enough to inherit something that already had really good visibility, memorability in the organization, probably because they've gone through the pandemic, and everyone's forced with this branding. It was very recognisable, and people wanted to keep it. And I was happy to do that because a good job had been done.

35:53
But it was seen as something that was for disease area training, scientific training. And what I've had to do is expand that to multiple brands and to skills and other things as well. But the foundation was already there. So it was not cheating. It was already a good thing to leverage and to use as a launchpad.

36:19
Right, right. So here's another question, John. I mean it just occurred to me when you were talking about engaging with stakeholder and so on. So typically where do you think an L&D manager’s or an L&D professional’s effort goes? If you look at this pre-training stakeholder engagement and lobbying and all of that, and then the actual design and delivery, and then of course you have the measurement of the training evaluation piece.

36:54
So do you have any advice that you can give on how should you distribute your effort? Because sometimes we tend to focus a little too much on the design and development of learning solutions.

37:09
That's a good point. I always say the content is the easy bit. Anyone can develop content. It's making that content work, getting out there, executing that plan, that's where the effort really happens.

37:24
I would argue that I think we've probably got industry best, industry leading content, but making that content live and having people learn from that content, evolve, develop from that content, and driving behavioral change, that's where the stuff really happens.
But content is easy. I'm going back to that point about, I think about the value of training. As I say, content is easy. I can come up with a PowerPoint, I can present a PowerPoint, but it doesn't do anything for behavioral change. It's that bit where you really need to invest, making sure you've got the plan right, making sure everyone's in the right place for the training, and the right cohort of people are there to participate in that training. That's where the effort happens.

38:11
And if you're asking a field team to come into a classroom, well, you've got to balance that, taking them time out the road. It's an expensive business. So it's got to be the right solution, got to be for the right cohort. It's got to be at the right time and it's a tremendous effort. That's where I think most of the effort goes, in getting the training in front of the learners, getting it right so it doesn't become one directional. No, the content is the easy bit. The hard bit is driving that behavioral change.

38:42
Right, right. And how involved are first line managers in supporting learning initiatives?

38:48
Timely question. They should be very involved because you need them to carry that out into the field.
You need them to drive behaviour change through the coaching. I've worked with them, evolved them into better coaches. They need to understand the training that's happening. They need to understand why that training is happening. They should be part of the training needs analysis, right?

39:09
If you haven't got that ‘why’ appropriately gauged, then there's no point in doing the training. If you want to know about why, then understand Simon Sinek's view of the world. But if you haven't got that why, then the sales managers aren't going to be on board. They're not going to be able to drive it through. You need them on board because certainly in our situation with the field team, need them on board so that they can push through that why, and carry through that learning and ensure that it happens.

39:35
So if I want to understand, has the training been effective? I can ask the learners, what do you think out of five, four out of five stars, right? Great stuff.

But the true benchmark is going to be what the manager sees. Has their key account manager seen improvement in what they do? And that's what that's Kirkpatrick Level 3, right? Level 4 was another discussion, but Level 3 behavioral change, have we got it? The sales managers can let me know yes or no.

40:10
Yeah, those are very pertinent points. Before we wind up John, I have one more question.
What advice can you share with L&D professionals who want to grow their career?

40:26
So I could be a real cynic here. I think I haven't mentioned it, but I think training is something that finds you. I don't know many people that say I'm going to go be a learning development. Maybe HR, yes, but with training specifically, you'll hear a lot of people I want to go into marketing. I wanted to go into marketing, but actually training found me, and I enjoyed it, and I stuck with it. But in terms of career development, I mean, I've been in the role, in different guises for the last 20 something years, working my way up from a bit player sort of training assistant, moving all the way up into a regional role, a global role as well as in my different function, but currently regional. But the job is more or less the same. It's just a bigger and bigger geography and a bigger number of people. What I would say is, if you're looking for glory, then you're going to be in the wrong role. I always describe it as a Cinderella role. You're always doing below stairs work if you like, having a big impact, but not often getting recognition for it. Not lights at least. It's not like you're the marketing leader, you know. Oh, look at me, I've done a great job.

41:41
So you don't get recognised, but you do it because you love it, and you do it because it's a vocation. And that's why I've stuck with it for such a long time and it's very rewarding. You have to be happy with seeing behavioral change, seeing things develop. I suppose it's a lot like a coach in sport, right?

You invest energy in other people's success. And I think that's probably one way to describe it. But I think when we spoke previously, I said a lot of the time, if things are going well, then the marketing team are doing a great job. But if things are going badly, then everyone needs training. And that's kind of how it's worked right through my career. But now it's a hugely rewarding job. But if you want to, in terms of growing your career, you need to look for opportunities. It was all, as I say, it's often used as a development role. So when you're in that role, make sure you learn about coaching, become a better coach, understand mentoring, understand how people learn, understand learning styles, understand how adults learn, particularly if we're talking about careers and jobs, then if you can do that, but get qualified as well. I mean, don't just think you know what you're doing. Speak to people, get a mentor, understand the theory behind learning and development, understand how people, how training can have that impact. So I think that's probably what I'd say.

43:13
Thank you, John. This is a very practical guidelines and I'm sure you've given all our listeners also a lot of things to think about. So thank you once again, John, it's been a pleasure having you and listening to your candid views on training. And I really hope that we get to do another podcast or have you as one of our speakers at one of our community of practice events. So thank you once again, and thank you, listeners, for tuning in. Do connect with John, on LinkedIn and stay tuned for future episodes.